getting more pop

WakeFrog1970 · Outlaw Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 143 City: Richmond

bobmurph,
thanks for directing me to this thread...

These explanations confirm what i had suspected... I'm definitely gonna take this advise out on the lake tomorrow.

Thanks fellow boarders....

Darin · Guest

Add me to the list of doing it wrong.

Darin · Guest

You guys that are getting all this "massive pop". Would you please post a vid or pics of the massiveness that is your pop? Not pics of other peoples massive pop that you are referring to, but the massive pop that you are getting yourself by using the formula in theis post. ie: showing the graphics on the bottom of the board to the boat. Specifically I'd like to see the pic of the board right at/on the wake. And the pics immediatly after with the graphics showing.

It looks like this guy is doing it wrong.

Is this the right seated pos?

No edge=no pop?

Is this good?

I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'edging' at the wake here, but the pop looks massive. I guess I'm just not sure how much edge is enough. It's relitive for each of us. You guys talking about being on edge AT the wake maybe thinking something different than others. I'm trying to finbd pics, all posted here at the WB so we can be talking about the same thing and seeing the same thing. I was thinking I'd be able to find a pic of a rider way over on this edge at the wake. Either I'm not picturing it right in my mind, or I'm just not finding it.

Mtheads · Newbie Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 14

can someone just sticky this to the top of the fourm, trick tips and newb forums, or edit it than sticky it, b/c everyone seems to be asking about pop and it'd be nice just to have this up there.

Blindside_137 · Posted: Jul 10, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject:

Darin, I'm kind of confused about this myself

In a WakeBoarding Mag section, Keith Lyman was relaying how he edges and one of the things he thinks about when cutting is, "Will i get my shoulders directly over my hips in time before i hit the wake" which implies standing tall and everything.

But how can you keep an edge (one as hard as showing the bottom of the board) if you stand tall at the wake?

Every video i ever watch, the spray from their board rapidly decreases as they climb up the wake. Which tells me that they are letting off their edge...

This stuff is frustrating at times Evil or Very Mad

Darin · Guest

I agree. I don't think guys are actually hitting the top of the wake 'on edge' as much as they say they are. I also see the board flatten out a bit as it's climbing the wake. But, I suspect that edging hard up the wake may be neccesary for "trip flips", if I'm referring to it right. What do I know, I can only jump HS into the flats. I like 90% of everyong else here neglects my TS jumping. But that's to change, I'll have my TS naild by the end of summer.

Blindside_137 · Posted: Jul 11, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject:

Darin, me too, I live an hour from the lake (Aunt's House) and i've only gone up there twice for about 4 or 5 sessions. The last few, i finally got my Heelside W2W dialed, even though i only get 3 feet of air.

But my goal is to have TS W2W dialed as well as switch riding by the end of the season and hopefully some switch W2W's so i can be working on 180's and maybe 360's next year

GuitsBoy · Posted: Jul 11, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject:

c-boy · Posted: Jul 11, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject:

I took a lesson and my instructor said that you should bend your kness only a small amount it gets you some speed. but like what people said before leaning back so that ur graphic is showing is the key

Blindside_137 · Posted: Jul 11, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject:

GuitsBoy, your right. But I would just like to set some goals for myself and more tricks in my bag. Cool

I have some snowboarding experience and i think i'm finally ready to fully commit to learning toeside. I'll just have to take baby steps, toeside cuts, one wake toeside, and then w2w toeside

RC4 · Outlaw Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 115 City: Central VA

Yeah, I think I'm losing my pop from bending at the waist and not keeping the rope tight to my hip through the top of the wake. I've heard the edge and stand tall tips before, but this is the first time I've seen something about "belly up." Thanks for that one. I'm stuck at about 3 to 4 feet of air right now and I can't get wake to wake yet.

Also, I agree that even though everybody says to keep the edge all the way up to the top of the wake, I never see a single pro doing this unless they are doing a particular invert that requires it. They all flatten out the board as they stand tall and go up the wake, and yet they are hitting 15-20 foot high double-ups. My board is on edge at the top of the wake more than the pros, but my air is 3-4 feet at the most. Like someone said, its frustrating trying to learn where I'm losing/absorbing my pop.

Thanks for the discussion, though.

fergie23 · Posted: Jul 12, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

One more thought on maximizing pop and using proper technique: How do you visualize your path to the wake? I saw Rocket's analogy to a smooth quarter pipe and I'm trying to get a good visual, as I know sometimes I am cutting too sharply and edging too hard to begin with--and that probably causes me to come off edge some...any thoughts on this? Thanks for any help!

RC4 · Outlaw Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 115 City: Central VA

fergie23,

Remember the "Compass" you used in elementary school to draw circles with? Well, 1/4th of the circle is the shape you want. Think of the water surface as the piece of paper. I'm attaching a picture of what your path should look like, if someone was flying directly overhead in a helicopter. The drawing sucks, but you should get the point. Obviously, the by the time you reach the big blue dot in the path, the boat has moved out of the way. The blue dot is approximately where you should be hitting the wake in your path. The rectangle is the wakeboard, the other line is the rope and handle. I really took my time on this... Wink

c-boy · Posted: Jul 12, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject:

that helped alot actually thanks

ps. teh drawing kicks ass:)

fergie23 · Posted: Jul 13, 2006 8:11 am Post subject:

RC4,

thanks for the drawing--it's perfect and definitely shows the difference between that turn and a 90 degree angle--thanks!

lhamb · Newbie Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

how important is it to have a tower if you want to get good height?

Sinkoumn · Posted: Jul 13, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

Lhamb, not the most important, but makes a world of difference (for the better).

derek_lukasik · Newbie Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 44 City: Fort Collins

Darin, I'm with you brother. I don't see how (and when I've tried it doesn't work) you can jump with your board still heavily edging. You have to flatten out a bit to get your hips back underneath you. In your pics above, the 2nd pic is exactly the -wrong- seated position. Butt sticking out. Chest pointed down. In my experience, initiating the edge with your chest/belly up gives the best posture. I like that quote too from WB mag from Lyman about getting his hips back underneath. That's certainly what it feels like I do when things work out well. Excellent discussion here..

c-boy · Posted: Jul 13, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject:

well it depends though cuz everyone has there own style...so if it works for you it might not work for others

derek_lukasik · Newbie Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 44 City: Fort Collins

Here are a couple of good examples, I think. In the first, the sequence of the S-Bend, it looks to me like he completely flattens out right at the peak. You can't seen any part of the bottom of the board. Just before, in the trough, he's edging big time. And he ends up with massive air.

In the second sequence, with the plain raley, she's still edging at the peak. But she has definitely moved her hips more underneath her. Same result, massive air.

Is the first technique wrong? Is it just a matter of style/preference? What do you think? Are these both prime examples of proper progressive edge technique? The raley, from all I've heard, is -the- move that requires proper progressive edge technique.

Both of these are from Wakeboarding Mag July 2005. I hope I don't get shot for posting them...

derek_lukasik · Newbie Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 44 City: Fort Collins

Oops, the pics got reversed. You get the idea though. Raley first, S-bend second. Also of note, the rider's stance during the cut. In the raley, more of an upright "middle" stance. The s-bend, a more seated, butt dragging edge.

c-boy · Posted: Jul 13, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject:

again just style and prefernce for the person i think...if both techniques work the same then.

whatever gets you the sweet trick and the sweet chick

RC4 · Outlaw Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 115 City: Central VA

Another thing I notice in both these pics. Look at the riders' arms while they are edging into the wake. Every person I've seen give advice on progressive edging and catching big air has said to have the handle down near your hips, tight and close to your body. Neither one of these pros are doing that in these pics. They both look like they have their arms almost straight out and chest high, with the handle nowhere near their body. Yet, they are getting massive amounts of pop. I have also seen them do this in some instructional videos.

So, I guess the real question is, what is(are) the common factor(s) between all these different techniques that gives experienced riders that massive air no matter what? Is it line tension and standing tall? The rest doesn't seem to matter much.

Rocket · Outlaw Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 127

This thread is now getting a bit frustrating to me.

As with everything, there is way that you learn which will be different to how you do it once you are experienced, when you are experienced you learn how to cut corners but this should not happen until you have learnt the basics. For example, when you learn to drive a car you are taught to keep both hands on the steering wheel but after about a month of driving you never do this again.

All the tips I have given at the start of this thread are the best way to think about things in order to learn the technique and get the feel for jumping. If you are learning how to get pop you should not be comparing your form with that of a pro in a magazine doing S-bends and Raleys!

RC4, when learning you SHOULD keep your hands in tight to your hip as this will help balance, as you get comfortable with jumping and can land confidentally you will not need to worry so much about this.

With reference to "showing the graphics on the bottom of your board to the boat", in reality you are unlikely to do this but it is the best way to think of it as you are learning as it will ensure you edge as late as possible and keep the tension in the line, this will give you the pop. You should still be on edge but you are not going to have the board that far angled in the water.

I think a key thing for all beginners to remember when learning is also to straighten your legs through the wake (not jump but just straighten them as you go up the wake) until they are completely straight at the top of the wake. Again, you will rarely see a pro do this as exagerated as I would recommend for learning but it is the best way to learn. I would also recommend that when learning a wake jump poeple start with their legs very bent but as I'm sure you have all seen the pros don't have their legs bent half as much. This is just because they have learnt perfect timing which you will not have as a beginner.

Please stop comparing yourselves with pros and just try some of the advice you are given, it WILL help!

RC4 · Outlaw Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 115 City: Central VA

Rocket,

No need to get frustrated. Think about it like playing golf or shooting a rifle. If you try to think about too many things at once, you will only confuse yourself. Same applies to any sport really.

Yes, all the tips you have given will probably help increase line tension and prevent people from absorbing pop. But, there is no way you can think about 5 or 6 different things as you approach the wake at high speed whether you are a pro or whether you are learning. Thats why its better to concentrate on the 1 or 2 most important aspects. Once you get those down, then you can fine tune your form.

derek_lukasik · Newbie Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 44 City: Fort Collins

I didn't mean to cause any frustration with my post. Nor was I trying to compare myself with a pro. There's no question that my technique is a long way from what's pictured above. But, I have been frustrated over the years each time I read about progressive edge and "edging all the way up the wake". It makes me think that I'm doing it all wrong. I don't want to build bad habits that are impossible to break later. If, in fact, that is what I am doing. So, all I'm saying is that everytime I've tried to keep the board heavily edged all the way up the wake, bad things happen. And, from the pictures and instructional videos I have seen, most people do flatten out at the peak of the wake.

One thing that is common between the two pictures above is the extension of the riders' legs. Both have extended their legs and held that extension through takeoff. I've really been focusing on that this year and it has definitely added to my air time. In the past what I would do was something like poking at the peak. So, I'd extend my legs all the way and then immediately back off. If I had a picture of me right after takeoff, my legs would be sucked up towards my chest. I was absorbing a lot of the pop by bending my knees at/after takeoff.

Rocket, the information you have provided here has been immensely helpful. I just got to the point where I thought I should share/validate my experience.

Darin · Guest

Ok, it works. I went tonight. Kept myself from 'racing' toward the wake. Just eased my progresive edge and built speed and stayed back on my heels a bit to "show my graphics to the boat". And the pop was there. I wasn't going as fast as I normaly do, but I felt it gave me the at least as much air. Only had time for a short run. But it does really make a difference. That little bit of edge at the wake did what I was hoping. I'm a believer.

WakeFrog1970 · Outlaw Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 143 City: Richmond

the tips rocket has given have helped with my form alot... especially since i just started 1 wak jumps toeside... i wished i'd read this thread before i started heelside jumps because now i'm having to correct the "bad habits" in my form...

anyways thanks for the tips....

ckligor · Soul Rider Joined: 18 Feb 2003 Posts: 454 City: A-town

see if this helps at all

GuitsBoy · Posted: Jul 19, 2006 9:52 am Post subject:

bobmurph · Outlaw Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 151 City: Atlanta

GuitsBoy · Posted: Jul 19, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject:

AGREED!!! Glad we got that all sorted out... :cheers:

boubou · Newbie Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 1

shazie · Criminal Joined: 17 May 2006 Posts: 67

Today my coach corrected a couple of my mistakes in progressive edge, hope these info might be useful to others.

1. Timing/feel the wake with front foot - My stand tall timing was always off. I used to come in with weight on back foot, stand tall with more weight on front foot. Now instead before I hit the wake, i should have already tranferred weight to front foot, so I can feel the wake with it, instead with my back foot (result in delayed reaction). I tried a few jumps and combined with ROCKETs suggestions, it worked super. Frightened me in fact, felt like I was springing off a trampoline.

2. Wider Stance (not proven) - Coach said my riding style needs a wider stance to accommodate it for better balance and control. Then I realised, I used to be able to w2w in April 06 (though with little height) but hardly anymore after I switched new board and narrowed the stance in mid May. I had a hard time digging into my heels when close to wake and blamed it on my new board. Yet to be tested. Tomorrow I will hit the waters again.

Hope its useful and thanks ROCKET for all the good advise.