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OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/22/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html

If you don't read that article, it basically talks about how several million Shiite Muslims went into the Iraqi city of Karbala to revive a religous tradition that was not allowed under Saddam's rule. Some have expresssed gratitude, but also called for the U.S. to leave and chanted "Death to America, Death to Israel." What the Hell? I mean really, what the hell? They are partaking in something they could have never done without our help, and now this? At this point I really don't know if their freedom was worth any of the American lives lost for this, maybe they are not ready for freedom...

Nick
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Ship Sale

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

They want freedom - including freedom from us. I wouldn't bash them too hard, they haven't been able to say ANYTHING for 30 years.

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

I can understand why/how they want us to leave, but freeing a bunch of people that are chanting "death to America" doesn't exactly make me happy...

Nick
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Legal marijuana dispensary

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

Yeah, not exactly the response we were looking for!

B-rad · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 6:59 am Post subject:

Yeah, that doesn't all together make sense to me either. I can understand not wanting to have a US pressence there at all. But the whole "Death to America"??? WTF? I can't see the logic in it.

Jester · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 7:58 am Post subject:

Well, some people are just ingrates, you know? There's people in America like that too. Consider September 11. For a good long time afterwards police were considered heroes; men & women to be respected. Now, a year & a half later people are back to the whole "stinking pigs" thing they had going on before September 11.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ok, here we go. They don't want US interference in the Middle East. This is largly why there is such a problem there, and why we were attacked by Al Queda in the first place. Though we freed them, they don't look at freedom the way we do, they don't put the same value on it as we do, and they don't appreciate us messing around in their region.

We weren't attacked because they hate freedom. We weren't attacked because we have too much sex. We weren't attacked because we like Pepsi and Brittany Spears and Playboy and because our women go to college and wear Daisy Dukes. We were attacked because they don't want us involved in their affairs. (many people in the middle east, anyway)

I've said this at least 50 times on these boards, and each time someone calls me anti-American, or something else nasty, or says that I would rather have had people suffer under Saddam. Whatever.

Historically, they don't like us messing around in the Middle East. They don't want our culture to take over. Thay don't put the same value on freedom as us. They don't think like us.

Our involvement there is the root cause of 9/11, and of a lot of other misery. (however, when on other boards when I suggested that we try to figure out why there is such hate for the US, people told me they didn't care why, and we should just bomb everyone who doesn't like us) I don't know what language these people need to spell it out in: A lot of them don't want the US in their region.

This is why I believe that liberation MUST come from within. Help is OK, but I don't think we should liberate anyone who isn't actively trying to help themselves. (though our meddling in Afghanistan bit us in the A$$, didn't it?)

So I am sure there are many people in Iraq that want a true democracy. But the majority of their population belongs to a religion that sees no separation of Church and State, and therefore are fundamentally against what we would call Democracy. This could be a problem.

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

There was a pretty cool piece on one of the news channels about this last night.

Basically they were saying that the "loud minority" was the one voicing these opinions and the media was running with that because it makes good headlines....very similar to what happened over here about 6 weeks ago with all of our protesters. The piece was all about the loud minority and the "left" media. On Fox News, I think...shocker that.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Jiihad has been around for centuries. This isn't new.

Mister C · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 2:51 pm Post subject:

People in Iraq are just voicing their opinions. Let them do it if they want. I would only have problems if they all started acting on their opinions.

Tyler T · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 5:52 pm Post subject:

so whats our 1st amendment? the most sacred of them all? oh yeah...our freedom of speech... this is exactly why we liberated iraq....so they could feel free to march through the streets chanting how much they hate us... because that is their right. If we tried to stop that, we would be no better than saddam and his regime...so let the people speak!

Sean_Brinston · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 6:06 pm Post subject:

I herd that last sunday i belive The first Catholic mass was held in Iraq in 20 years.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Loud minority? Ok, I'll buy that. Most of the population was not out protesting.

However, most of the population is Shiite Muslim. So the quesiton is: Can democracy occur in a country who has a majority population of Shiite Muslims?

As an American, you can be a Catholic and follow the Pope. However, you don't think that the Pope should be leading the country(necessarily). I don't think that Shiites like to make the distincition between religion and the state, like we do here.

Does anyone know about, or practice, Islam on this board? Perhaps someone more experienced and knowledgeable can comment on whether the Shiite branch of Islam could get behind a real democracy?

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

My point was not that we should restrict their speech, only that liberating people that hate us may not be a good thing. Like would you pick up a hitchhiker that was going to kill you when you dropped them off? Hopefully once we leave they will be happy just doing what they are doing without getting violent or evil. Many gave their lives for their freedom and they should thank us, not wish us dead.

Also, some cultures are just different but some cultures suck and should be irradicated off this earth in my opinion. I don't know if this group falls into this catagory or not. Not because they are different but because they can't exist in peace, examples are the Nazis, Al Queda, and maybe the Taliban. All cultures that suck...

Also, maybe culture is the wrong word but you know what I mean.

Nick
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Universal health

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

And they think we are the ones who can't exist in peace, because we keep messing around in their region.

Otto, I agree with your first paragraph. The thing is, I don't think these Shiites believe that any Americans gave their lives for Iraqi freedom. They probably believe that Americans came to fight for the security of America, not to save Iraqis.

I wouldn't be too quick to disagree with them. I always believed that we went there to fight for the US. The fact that we can bring democracy to Iraq is just a bonus, and a great PR selling point.

I think that "irradicated off this earth" might be a little harsh. I wonder if it is the culture itself, or that the culture is such that it just makes it easy for bad people to take the lead. Know what I mean?

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I think that we can exist in peace. We don't go after Canada, Mexico, England, Germany, France, Spain, Australia, and thousands of other countries that are peaceful. The middle east is always having problems, I'm just glad there isn't any holy city/crap over here for them to get all crazy about.

Nick
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DESIGN HOST

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Of course WE can exist in peace. We don't openly attempt to take over other countries, and we don't have any long standing border feuds. Add in that the 3 of the worlds major religions all stake a claim to certain cities in the M.E., and a big oil supply, and it's all hell breaking lose.

I say we just leave. Totally. Rely on our South American Oil, develop more efficient engines, drill in Alaska, whatever it takes. Let them kill each other if they want, or set up democratic governments, or let them govern themselves according to what Mistress Cleo has to say for all I care. I think that our goal should be to be able to totally keep out of the Middle East.

We are scared, though, that they will unite under one strong leader. Then we, and Israel, would be in trouble. That's one reason why we keep messing around there, like when we backed both sides in the Iran/Iraq war. Divide and conquer.

Bogger · Outlaw Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 134 City: Augusta, Ga

Not all the kicking the regimes out is to free the people. The main reason we went to Iraq was because we thought they had weapons of mass destruction. we went there to disarm saddam, not just free the people.

People in iraq probably hate us because they grew up being taught to hate us. If you were raised thinking something, you normally believe in it. just like japanese kamakaze pilots. in WWII we were freakin out cuz teenagers were commiting suicide to kill us. but it was nothing to them because they were raised thinking it was something to be proud of.