"How To Handle The Protesters"

[Neognosis]

Indirectly, the war is about oil. If not for oil, we might not have supported Israel so enthusiastically, (we need an ally in the region, to help stabilize it, because of the oil that is there). We are involved in the middle east because we have always attempted to keep the region stable because of it's vast oil supplies. (at least in part). So the people there grew to hate us because of our presence there, and as a result, they hate our culture and our freedoms.

So the war is about Sadam and the threat he poses to us (partly because we screwed him after the Iraq/Iran war). So even though we are not involved in Iraq because of oil, we are entangled in the whole mess in the middle east because of Israel and oil, which made us a target for fanatics and ruthless dictators like Saddam.


So the question: are we in Iraq because of oil?: The immediate answer is "no." But indirectly, oil has played a role in our involvement in the middle east overall.

[Leggester]

One more thing CB.

We built those countries. Saudi Emirate States had nothing until we developed their oil fields. Then, they nationalized them.

I truly believe most of their hate comes from their inability to accept the modern world. You and I live in a world where women have the same rights as men, they do not, nor do they want to. Most, if not all the people on this board grew up in homes with floors, they do not. They do not want a distribution of wealth, they are still in the Feudal system.

Also, the same goes for our support of Isreal. If we wanted better relations for oil, we'd not support Isreal.

We've, for the most part, kept our Civil Morals high. We also support a WORLD with at least the same Civil Morals we have. We're not perfect, but we're a damn sight better than most countries.

[Neognosis]

I agree to an extent, leggester. I think part of the problem is that these countries, which were once (before they became the countries that they are now) part of a great empire, were little more than rubble being fought over by roving bands of tribes with no real central governmet. After WWII, they got divided up according to European politics, without a lot of appreciation for the tribes and cultures that had their own boundaries. This only prepared the way for a lot of civil strife and war.

So now, these cultures are maturing, and finding themselves the little guy on a block inhabbited by the US and the rest of our "allies" and they don't like it. They feel that their culture is going to be swallowed up and assimilated by Western culture. Well, they are right! But not because we will force it on them, but because our culture is so damn appealing! Look at Japan! They are more American than Amrica!

[Leggester]

Very true CB.

I though of another thing. Most countries that we helped build or rebuild alos dislike us. e.g. France,k Germany.

The countries that we liberated, are mostly in our coalition.

Interesting bit of world politics.

[DaveBrowning]

Where did I get abortion from? Here's your answer: These people that are out in the streets protesting about the war saying "No lives for oil." and saying we shouldn't go to war because we don't want anyone killed are contradicting themselves greatly. The reason being, they are the same one's protesting out in the streets supporting abortion. What is abortion again? Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the taking of a life? Let's recap... we don't want to go to war because we don't want anyone killed. Yet, at the same time, we support abortion. Does this not seem very strange to you? That is the point I was making.

[Jello John]

First of all B-rad, I would like to say that you are excellent at making stuff up. Here is what I wrote in that post where I apparently said it was ok to pay homeless people to fight.

“I've never given money away to people for that reason. I did give a homeless guy a my gloves once though.”

“I just downloaded and watched that "Bum Fights" movie. It was kind of sad and funny at the same time. Some of those guys really hated each other!”

“You don't make them fight. It's their choice.”

“If you are talking about me, which I think you are, I DON'T think it is alright to torture anyone. I am partially against war due to my beliefs, but I mainly disagree with this war just over the way we are performing it. I definitely felt that this was a conflict that could've been solved peacefully and that Iraq wasn't a major threat to us either. And by downloading the video off of Kazaa, I'm not supporting the company.”

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=3961

Umm..now where did I say that fights were ok????? I’m still trying to figure out how you could find that post funny. I mean, you are, in a way, being a hypocrite for calling unprovoked violence against war protesters funny, but an unforced fight between two homeless people is wrong.

Weren’t you in some branch of the armed forces before? If someone made a joke about you for being in that branch, would you be offended?

Dave – You are assuming that keke is Pro-Choice. I am, but I’m not going to debate it since I am not informed enough to provide a strong opinion. A person that supports abortion believes that no one is dying as a result, so it doesn’t seem strange to me.

[Nor*Cal]

Dave you've introduced several logical fallacies. I believe the best example is a red herring or straw man. You have taken completly different arguments and tried to create a distorted view of the issues. Just thought I would let you know. I support the war but I wouldn't defend it through attacking pro-life people.

I don't think Germany has any grievances with the USA. They are merely supporting the popular opinion of the European Union. The French hate everyone anyways. I'm not really concerned with American popularity in Europe that will change weekly depending on the Economics. The Islamic World is where I think cultural differences clash and we have serious issues. There has to be some comprimise. Leggester, made a great point about them not accepting the modern world. You can't live in the past. Civilizations are connected very closely now and we have to find a way to exist.

Here's the question... Is anti-americanism just an extension of anti-capitalism??? Large American corporations are global and act with as they please in the global economy. Are their actions a significant part of this anti-american attitude?

[Leggester]

Whoa, whoa, whoa there!

Germany is stating the popular opinion of the E.U.????[

Nope, now way, not at all. There are more countries in the coalition from the E.U. than out of it.

Please, do not make broad statement.

That's like saying the war protestors are merely stating the popular opinon of the U.S. when, according to Gallup, 70% are positive on the war.

[Jello John]

Here's a funny song: http://www.snickerplanet.com/

[Nor*Cal]

Leggester, I support this war. The statement isn't that broad. Germany and France are by far the power houses in that organization. I should have probably said that Germany is supporting their greatest political ally within the EU and UN.

I never stated that protestors represent the Gallup Polls. If you've read any of my past post you would knw what my stance is on this issue.

Again, I see this war as an enforcement action of the 18-19 UN resolutions that have been passed in the last 12 years.

[DaveBrowning]

Okay... here's my proposal: why don't we quit making topics about war, protesting, etc. It does nothing but piss people off. We've had so many lately. They all end up turning into the SAME EXACT THING. They're getting old. Obviously, we know where people on these boards stand. So... why not stop? Just a thought.

[Neognosis]

How about if you don't want to read about people's opinions on the war, you don't read these posts.

Again, about abortion and people who are anti-war:
People who support abortion do not believe that a fetus is a human life until it can survive on its own outside the mother. So it is not hypocritical for them to be against the death penalty and against war. In their minds, abortion is not the taking of a LIFE.

So stop saying that people who are against the war and for abortion are contradicting themselves. You just don't seem to be able to understand that people see and believe things differently than you.

[Josh R]

DaveBrowning, How about we make one about Religion then?

[ohsix]

[Neognosis]

I'll second that. That's why I try to not take any political stand (though a lot of people think I always do). I mostly like to read all the arguments, and then call people on stuff that is not logical of just plain near-sighted. No matter what your personal beliefs are, you have to argue them in a way that makes sense and you should never follow the crowd without questioning and deciding something for yourself.

If someone disagrees with me, and they have a logical, valid argument that isn't filled with senseless emotion or blind obediance, I usually, at the very least, reconsider my own viewpoint.

But when someone makes a statement that just doesn't make sense or is based on emotions, that's when I get involved.

Everyone should take the LSAT test, specifically the logic section. When I studdied for that test, man, it changed my views on a lot of things, because you learn what logic really is, and you get educated on the varying types of misleading and illogical arguments people try to put out there.

[DaveBrowning]

No... see, that's just it... people assume things. I enjoy reading these posts. I love to argue and debate. My problem is, I hate it when people get all pissed off & try to be cute by being smartasses.

[Neognosis]

I'll second that too.