Creating a "harder" wake?

BigFire · Newbie Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

I own a 2002 Tige 21V Limited. It creates a large wake, but compared to other wakes I have ridden, if feels "soft." I have added about 250lbs in the back, and it helped some. Anybody have ideas on making a "harder" wake?

Jay Dutton · Posted: Jul 12, 2005 7:50 am Post subject:

I ride behind a 21V all the time, we put 350 on each side of the engine and 500 in the bow. W/Taps around 3 or 4 it creates a nice pop at the top of the wake. It's not as poppy or hard as a San or Supra 21V, but it really nice.

Hyperryd · Addict Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 604 City: Central Cali

I would definitely put some weight in the bow. It should help out a lot on the firmness of the wake.

Bowen · Posted: Jul 13, 2005 5:20 am Post subject:

Typically its just the shape of the hull that makes the wake that way. Like Jay Dutton, said the Supra's and Nautiques are typically the hardest (from my experience), and then the soft wakes are Malibu's and Tige's (Malibu moreso than tige').

Boomer · Outlaw Joined: 14 Jun 2004 Posts: 109 City: Austin

What a ridiculous, incorrect generalization.

Ruune · Posted: Jul 18, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject:

have the spray pockets filled in... pre-convex V (2002 and earlier) hulls are notorious for this.

DRAGON88 · Posted: Jul 18, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject:

BigFire · Newbie Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 12

ok...silly question, but what is a spray pocket?

Jay Dutton · Posted: Jul 18, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject:

I circled them on my bro's Tige. Sorry for the small pic. They can be filled in so the sides are completely smooth. Evidently it makes a big difference in the quality of the wake and the new Tige's don't have them. IIRC my bro got qouted around $1,200 to have his filled. He never bothered with and probably never will because he's satisfied w/his wake.

DRAGON88 · Posted: Jul 18, 2005 10:46 pm Post subject:

I was wrong...

Sorry...

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

Actually, the spray relief pocket is actually a pocket on the bottom of the boat. Should be able to see in diagram.

As far as wake hardness is concerned, that's generally decided by hull shape. You can change some minor characteristics of the wake such as height, width, sharpness, etc. by redistributing/adding/subtracting weight, but the so-called "firmness" of the wake will remain mostly consistent with the actual hull shape.

needtoride · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 7:16 am Post subject:

I disagree with two things....
1) Malibu's have soft wakes..... I understand that it is an opinion and not a generalization. All I can say is you need to ride behind a 05 VLX that is weighted (3000lbs +) correctly, and that is the last time you will ever think that. I have ridden behind every boat out there in a weighted condition (except for a newer X-star), and I would say that the 05 VLX is my favorite wake. Once you get some weight in there the thing gets really hard and poppy. Maybe in a stock condition things are different.... I don't know.... but then again most of us don't run just stock ballast.

2) I disagree that the hardness of the wake remains consistent. What I have found is that from 0-2000lbs of ballast (depending on the size of your boat) most boats just gain height and size. When you start to get into the region of 3000-3500 lbs of ballast the wake does not get much bigger, but gets much, much harder. Your wake can end up very soft if you do not have enough weight in the front of your boat so make sure that you have enough weight in the front.
That is my take.....

Jay Dutton · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 7:19 am Post subject:

Here's a pic of a new Tige 22V, notice it has no spray pockets. My bro that owns a 21V acutally sold Tige's for two years until a month ago so I got to hear about it from him how they filled in those pockets.

Wakebrad · Ladies Man Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas

That's rediculous if you have to put 3000# of weight in a boat.

I agree that the more weight you put it makes the wake harder. The configuration will help but it's more about quantity. But if it requires 3000# + to make the wake hard I'd say the boat normally throws a soft wake. I don't want to run 10gph driving a tank through the water to make the wake hard. So for me a Malibu would throw a soft wake because I don't think I should ever have to put anywhere near 3000# of weight.

SuprAir, has it with the spray pockets. What DRAGON88 circled is called a tapered chine and doesn't have the same effect as a spray pocket.

Broccoli B · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 7:48 am Post subject:

tuneman · Newbie Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 49

Just ski on 33 degree water and it will feel really hard, especially when you crash Laughing

Seriously, put weight in the front. It will narrow your wake up a bit and will also increase the firmness. It's a physics thing that I don't want to explain, just do it. Wink

Bowen · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 10:10 am Post subject:

tuneman, uhhh, weight up front makes the wake wider. weight in the back makes it narrower/steeper.

Ruune · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 10:53 am Post subject:

LOL and its hydrodynamics.... not just physics.

As the boat sits lower in the water, the submerged portion of the hull gets wider- this is because most hulls are angled outward until you reach the rubrail. This is done for increased strength, in addition to making the boat more stable as it becomes more loaded.

As the submerged portion of the hull gets wider, so does the wake.

Furthermore, putting more weight in the front of the boat will only change the angle, not the width... which may actually relieve some of the wash from the spray pockets... If the TAPS is set to a lower setting, but I'm not sure.

Bottom line- before doing anything drastic, play around with your sacks (DOH!) and experiment with different TAPS settings.

Bruky · Guest

bighitbiker3 · Soul Rider Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 386 City: Seattle

Bruky, Isnt that what he said a 22v and he was just showing how they were filled in.

DRAGON88 · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject:

He was showing the side chines filled in...

kyle · Guest

if you use led instead of water weight, the wake will be harder because the led is localized to one spot and doesnt shift

bighitbiker3 · Soul Rider Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 386 City: Seattle

Hmm good question but I dont think so because I dont THINK that shifting causes it to be soft.

kyle · Guest

if you ride a SAN with led vs. water with the exact same setup, then you will notice the difference

Bruky · Guest

bighitbiker3, you can't see the spray pockets from the side of the boat!!!@#!@#!@# Mr. Green

Liquidmx · Addict Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 755 City: San Jose

Pour some jello into those ballast tanks, that may help too. Rolling Eyes

I think it is absurd to put 3000 lbs into a boat to create a decent wake. I could see doing it once for a photo shoot or something but that is about it. I know these boats are built tough but that much weight seems pretty hard on the entire drivetrain and hull.

But I guess if you were pro and got a new boat every season it wouldnt matter how bad you stressed the boat, its only got to last 1 year.

I wonder if that is why parks ordered his x star with the biggest motor they make, tons of weight?

DRAGON88 · Posted: Jul 19, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:

karmacoma · Newbie Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 36

If you're looking to firm your wake up a little, bump the speed up. Wake will be smaller, but it'll also be harder.

kyle · Guest

Liquidmx, you really have never wakeboarded have you?

Bruky · Guest

1) Parks doesn't order boats, he gets what MC gives him.

2) 3000 pounds won't hurt the boat if you don't hammer on the throttle (this only applies with 2 piece v-drive transmissions (Walter and PCM). MC has a single piece unit which you can hammer on all you want)

3) Once you ride with 3000 pounds, you won't ever want to go back.

4) Kyle is 100%, totally, absolutely correct. I've heard it now from him, multiple old timers, and finally tried it out for myself.

Liquidmx · Addict Joined: 26 Jul 2004 Posts: 755 City: San Jose

Parks orders boats through a mastercraft dealer in orlando, at least that is what an article in wakeboarder mag said.

I guess you could throw 3000 lbs into an I/O and it would throw a decent wake too. Rolling Eyes

Then again I am pretty sure an outlaw or someone of that level could rip behind any boat with decent ballast, I learned 5 diff inverts behind our 89 bu with 1600 ish pounds plus passengers.

The argument seemed to be headed towards an efficiency plan of "what boats throw a better wake with less weight". I guess your lead theory is correct since a pound of feathers and a pound of lead obviously does not weigh the same amount? I always thought a boats wake was created from the water rushing in to take place of the hole it made as it pushes through the water. How would lead and water weight effect that outside of sloshing during a turn? Are you referring to lighter bags that might slide around and not be full / burped? Maybe lead keeps the wake from washing when you cut in out unlike water, dunno never ridden behind a leaded boat.

When I rode with Rich F. (whispers) and Josh S. a few years ago the SAN they were pulling me with had water weight and was so heavy that it was impossible to even ride inside out without literally dropping off the wake. I found the wake to be pretty fun for taking tricks huge, but pretty painful for Ginuea pigging new ones because the distance of the fall was huge.

I guess I came off a little newbish to you kyle, sorry to offend a seasoned pro.

Bruky · Guest

Ruune · Posted: Jul 20, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject:

hmm... good point- but i'd be willing to bet a fully-loaded rigid tank water ballast system would work in the same manner. The logic being that the container of the water prevents it from sloshing around. This is as opposed to a flexible sack.

Wakebrad · Ladies Man Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas

Ruune, you are correct. If you fill a tank to the top there is nowhere for the water to slosh. This isn't quite possible with bladders because they will always stretch no matter how much you fill them.

Let me also just say that I think the differences between lead and bladders is probably minimal. I don't doubt that lead is better but it's not worth trailering that extra weight and running the risk of sinking my boat to me.

hamkj · Soul Rider Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 303 City: City

I am not an engineer.. but after seeing how various boats react weight etc... I would think that the more you can get the hull to plow through the water will give you a thicker and harder wake. Thus the reasoning for some adding more weight to the front of the boat.

Most boats are designed to reduce the running surface in the water when under speed... thus adding weight will get the boat plowing opposed to getting on top of the water.

Some hulls like the X-Star and XLV have narrowed the very back of the boat to try and get the back end to sit lower... thus require less weight to get a bigger wake.

Malibu uses the Wedge to get the back end to ride lower.

Check out the "new" EPIC boat... a hull like no other... you have to see it... it actually plows through the water... the hull was desinged to be wakeboard specific... After driving it and riding behind it... it feels as if the boat plows through the water opposed to wanting to lift out... as a result it creates a big, thick wake.

I remember when the new X-Star hull came out... it was totally different than anything anyone had ever seen before... It produces a great wake. But there are still characteristics of the hull that make it versatile to cruise around in... or even try and ski... if you don't mind the hump.

Most boat hulls are designed to be versatile... produce nicely shaped wakes for wakeboarders when there is weight... ride high in the water when cruising or skiing... and reduce the spray for comfort... the charactersitics that create the lifting sensation or reducing the spray... are why you require more weight in certain types of hulls compared to others.

Grab a bunch of people... and play around with weight.. move them to the back.. the front... etc... see what works best.. this is much faster to filling and emptying sacks to find out your optimum weight distribution.

My 2000 Aztec Crow... I needed more weight at the front or the wake would just curl.

My 2004 Sky Supreme... Clean wake no matter where you put the weight... but more at the back.. you get a lippy vert wake... move some to the front... you get a thick rampy wake...

The 2005/06 Epic... Put weight everywhere and a subtle change to the wake plate changes the shape fo the wake depending on riding style.

Take your boat.. play with weight... and get it dialed! Enjoy!