2003 MC X-10 weight-system questions

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

Hi there

A friend of mine owns an x-10. He's having problems with the weight-system. The tanks in the back (the stareboard-tank) blows up by filling and the other one (other side) doesn't fills sometimes...

Does anyone has the system taken appart and drawed how it's wired and tubed (tube, pumps, valvets and so on). That would help us really to get the problem.

Also we would like to add some weight to the bow (it seems that the pp has problems to hold the speed because of too much weight in the back).

Does anyone has an idea on how to put in two sacks into the space under the side seats in the bow (sizing?)?

Thx for your help

voegi

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 16, 2005 7:32 am Post subject:

Front ballast addition:

http://forums.wakeboarder.com/viewtopic.php?t=13607&highlight=

regarding the rear tanks...I'm not sure if the '03 is set up like my '02. My '02 has 1 pump each for each rear tank. What do you mean by "blows up"? Does the pump that "doesn't fill sometimes" run when you throw the switch?

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

Hi

Thx for the reply.

With blowing up, I mean that the tank (stareboard = the one which is filled normally) is filled fully with water and the side wand of the tank is really bucked out => pressure inside the tank.

It's crazy: If you put the switch called "stbd" = stareboard to FILL, and also the other one (not port) to fill, then only the stareboard tank fills up and the other one is still empty.

If you put the starboard switch to empty and then put the other one to fill, the stareboard pump stopps working. If you put the other one to empty allone, the left tank fills up.

I would need a overview of hwo the system is tubed...

Thx also for the link,

voegi

Wakebrad · Ladies Man Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas

A 2003 should still be under warranty. I'd take it in.

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

You really think that it will help. Probably, but then, you still not know how it works...

thx for the input...

voegi

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 16, 2005 11:39 am Post subject:

Voegi,

Is this boat new to you, or is this a recent problem to a boat you've had for a while? Have you done any modifications to the ballast system?

Do you know of the tech forums on www.mymastercraft.com ? If not, go register there and post your question.

You should have an overflow vent on the top of each of your rear tanks (providing they are Mastercraft install) that would prevent a them from "blowing up".

Regarding the switches (again, assuming MasterCraft install), there should be 3 for the KGB system. One labeled starboard, one labeled port, and the "other" (no label) is the center bag.

I will post how my '02 X10 is/was plumbed from MasterCraft when I have more time.

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 16, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject:

Voegi,
From what I recall, below is a picture of how my '02 X10 stock ballast system was set up. Hopefully you can look the picture over and get an understanding of what is happening. If not, let me know and I'll help explain.

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

Hi "P hat in Cincy"

The boat is the one of a buddy of mine.

The ballast is factory installed (MC) and we didn't change anything.

Yes, we also are having this 3 switches and they are labeled (or not) in the same way as in your boat.

We're having this problem since he got the boat (I think)...

Your drawing is great, thx a lot. As soon as possible, I'll go and check if it's the same in our boat. I also go and register to the techforums at mastercraft.com. I don't think that they have changed the tubing and wiring between the 02 and the 03 model-line...

Concerning your sheme: What do you mean with "check valve"? Is that a valve that allows the water only going in one direction?

Thx for your help...

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

Another question is if you're able with your boat to fill all 3 sacks/tanks at the same time or if you have to fill the first, then the second and so on.

As I can see in your drawing, there is only one (main) inlet which is going to the "mainfold". Do all 3 pumps are getting enough water if they run at the same time?

What exactly is the mainfold? Sorry, but my english is not that good. Could you explain in other words?

What I would als be interested in is you pp settings: There are different settings and they change from boat to boat, from weight to weight...

Do you run in "speed" modus or in "rpm" modus? What are your "NN" settings and what are your "KDW" settings? I would like to know this to solve the pp issue on that boat too Confused

Thx voegi

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 17, 2005 3:20 am Post subject:

Voegi,
See question and answers below.

"What do you mean with "check valve"? Is that a valve that allows the water only going in one direction?"
Correct.

"Another question is if you're able with your boat to fill all 3 sacks/tanks at the same time or if you have to fill the first, then the second and so on."
When my system WAS stock, I could fill 2 at one time.

"As I can see in your drawing, there is only one (main) inlet which is going to the "mainfold". Do all 3 pumps are getting enough water if they run at the same time?"
Inlet piping ID (inside diameter) reduces down to 3/4" before and at manifold. Stock pump setup reduces down to 1/2~5/8 (I think) on the outlet side of the pumps. So, when running multiple pumps, you're trying to supply a (combined) larger cross sectional area of water than your initial inlet line. Basically, flow is restricted.

"What exactly is the mainfold"
It is a distribution block.

"Do you run in "speed" modus or in "rpm" modus? What are your "NN" settings and what are your "KDW" settings?"
I don't know my specific settings, but I only run in speed mode. Never RPM.

"I would like to know this to solve the pp issue on that boat too"
What is your issue with pp? Read this: http://mymastercraft.com/Forum/view_thread.cfm?postid=174&forum=10&category=2

For my ballast system, I have added an additional inlet for the front bags. The front bags (using 1 pump) is a totally separate system now from the rear ballast setup (using 2 pumps). My fill/empty times are about 1/2 of what they used to be. The inlet and ballast addition under the bow seats (see link in my first reply post) are the two most beneficial modifications I have done.

Once you get your pump/filling issue resolved, I would strongly suggest that you get some weight up front. Not only will it improve your wake, but it could also solve your PP issue.

BTW...your English is great.

Let me know if you need more clarification.

Paul

AZ330ci · Criminal Joined: 05 Jun 2003 Posts: 73

I had the same problem in my 03 X-10 with one of my tanks. The dealer ended up replacing the ballast pump and it worked for a while but I had problems again. So the 2nd time Mastercraft replaced all my ballast pumps (under warenttee) and since then I haven't had any problems. I was told that the impellers in the pumps were getting stuck in one direction. They mentioned for me to hit the fill side of the switches for a few seconds (after emptied) to switch the direction of the impeller.

Hope this helps.

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

Hi guys...

Thx for the replies and thx for the compliment concerning my english Smile

This afternoon, we took appart the boat to check out what's the problem with the KGB.

We simulated the lake by putting a gardenhose into the main intake (right after the ball valve there is mounted a T where a normal gardenhose fits in perfectly). This gardenhose went to a reservoir with water, so that the pumps had to pull the water (and the water was not pushed inside with pressure).

We noticed soon that one of the check valves (the one on the backboard-side) allowed to pull air from the drain hole during the stareboard tank was filling.
That's probably the main fault. Because if the check valve don't prevent the air from coming in during the other tank is filling, the pump of the stareboard tank gets air. That becomes worse if you try to fill the backboard tank at the same time => more air is pulled inside the mainfold.
We will now replace that 3/4'' check valve an look what happens.

All the other pumps and switches seem to work properly (they are wired correct!)

Oh, and not to forget that the drawing above is correct, also for the 2003 models! Thx, that helped us a lot during the process of understanding where to start.

Ok, and as it has been mentioned, the pp-issue will hopefully solve by itselfes:

By cruising in "speed-mode", sometimes (f.e. if there are some waves out on the lake) the boat is getting fast and slow and fast and slow and so on. Is becoming worse if you wait (faster and slower).

I think that the problem is that this type of boat beginns to glide just at the speed you normaly ride for wakeboarding. The pp is then having serious problems controlling the speed of the boat. By adding some more weight to the bow, the boat gets heavier and due to that, it starts to glide later...

Hitting the fill side of the switches for a few seconds (after emptied) also forces the pumps to pull water inside and this prevents the impellers from running dry (during the time the water has to be pulled out the lake at the time you fill the sack/tanks the next time). That's always a good idea.

Thx again for the help, I'll post back in a few days after we could check out if the problem has been solved.

voegi

Cool

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 17, 2005 7:53 am Post subject:

Voegi,

Glad to hear you think you found the problem. Make sure you orientate the check valve correctly. The flap has to hang down so that gravity assists it closing. Also, there should be a flow direction arrow on it.

Regarding PP...if your paddlewheel pickup is in the same place as mine (slightly forward and to the starboard side of the "T" handle center drain plug), it is not in an ideal position for when the boat is on plane (gliding). Putting weight in the bow of the boat forces the bow down. That means the PP padlewheel is deeper in the water and has a reduced chance of coming out when hitting chop or waves.

Again, get some additional weight in the bow. You'll like what it does for your wake and you'll probably see your PP issue go away.

I don't know how long it takes information to catch up to you in Switzerland, but I'd suggest your friend monitor the www.mymastercraft.com tech forums . There is a "recalls" thread that he/she should keep up on to make sure the boat is up to date. You can also input your hull ID # to run a check on it.

Paul

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

ok, we'll doing that.

Do you know (out of the pocket) how much ballast we shall add to the bow (and to the rear in addition to the KGB) to get a nicer wake. In comparison to the x-2 another friend of mine has, the wake is really "round".

Thx a lot Paul, for your info and help. I'll come back soon to report the changes. The "trick" with the valves I already knew, but thx anyway Wink

greets

voegi

P.S.: Do you have a pic of your boat?

Here we go with my buddys one (the water can also be flat over here in Switzerland => next photo!)

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 17, 2005 8:19 am Post subject:

I think I'm safe in saying the wake will never shape up like the X2. It will always be "rampy" and wide. The best wake I ever had was with about ~1100lbs and 11-13 people in the boat.

My weight setup...I probably run (maybe) 200-300lbs in each rear, full center bag, and 2 (as full as I can get them) sacs in the front (~200lbs each).

btw...I no longer have the rear hard tanks. I replaced them with 680lb bags (overkill) for wakesurfing flexibility.

For pictures check out my profile and gallery.

voegi · Outlaw Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 115 City: Switzerland

You gave me the link to the tread about the pp-issue on the x-10/210er models:

There's written:

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 18, 2005 3:11 am Post subject:

The rounding of the wake hasn't been my experience. Perhaps that is due to the amount of people I have in the boat at any given time and the extra bow ballast helps keep the 60/40 ratio (rear/front).

1w00d · Soul Rider Joined: 29 Apr 2003 Posts: 331 City: Wichita

P hat in Cincy,

Somewhat on the same subject, is there anything that needs to be done to the valves at the start of the new season. I bought my X-10 used over the winter from a non MC dealer and thus did not get the official "New Mastercraft" introduction to my boat. The rear tanks are filling and draining, the center bag does nothing. This could be a pump issue.

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 18, 2005 10:09 am Post subject:

1w00d...not aware of anything to be done to valves. I'd just give 'em (ball valves) a turn every so often to make sure they don't get bound up by river/lake sludge. As for check valves...??? Maybe just a good clean fresh water flushing thru the system???

Center bag doing nothing: If you have the stock MC setup and your rear tanks are filling/emptying correctly, then a valve should not be your issue.

Is your pump working when you flip the switch? If you can hear it running, have you removed the cover of your pump impellar housing to check that the impellar has all it's parts (as I mentioned before, one of mine had lost 3 vanes)? Is your boat running when you fill/empty (pumps can demand some power)?

Don't know if I want to mention (or would reccommend) this, but my experience had been if the impeller housing cover was screwed on really tight it would bind the impeller. If I backed the screws off a LITTLE it would alleviate the pressure and the pump motor could turn the impeller.

It's been mentioned before (and is my experience/reccommendation) that after you fill or empty, reverse the switch for a couple of seconds to get the impeller vanes reversed. For some reason, on occasion, it seems like the pumps don't have enough power to reverse the vanes on initial startup. So, get them going the direction (fill or empty) you intend to go next.

I'm, by far, no expert on this but I am very familiar with the setup of my boat. I'll help any way I can, just give me some detail. If you want to pull this offline (although others may benefit from it), feel free to email me.

For now...it's gettin' about ridin' time!

1w00d · Soul Rider Joined: 29 Apr 2003 Posts: 331 City: Wichita

P hat in Cincy,

Right now I can't hear the center pump running. I suppose it could be that the impeller not spinning and that is why I can't hear it. I obviosly need to do a little more investigating. I appreciate your input. Unless someone complains, or you would prefer, I'll keep this on hear so someone else might benefit. You've helped me out already with your replies to voegi.

P hat in Cincy · Posted: May 18, 2005 11:21 am Post subject:

1w00d...

Do this on land. No need for water hook-up. No need for boat running. Remove the 3 bolts on the center pump impeller housing plate and inspect your impeller. If OK, loosely fasten the plate back on and give the switch a brief hit of power and try to listen to see if the pump is firing (don't run it long with no water or you'll burn the impeller). If you have someone that can lend an ear (to listen) or a finger (HA!...to fire the switch), it can be helpful so that you can see if you are getting ANY noise at the pump when the switch is thrown.

Be sure to tighten the bolts back down after your investigation, but not TOO tight. I believe they are brass and will strip quite easily.

Oh, and be sure the "O-ring" is in place correctly when replacing the cover.

On my setup, the middle pump is the center ballast pump. If you are not sure, fire (briefly) the rear tank pumps one at a time...process of elimination.

Do some digging and let me know what you find out.

1w00d · Soul Rider Joined: 29 Apr 2003 Posts: 331 City: Wichita

Will do!