Justified: War in Iraq

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

What would justify war to the rest of the world and even the active minority in the USA who are protesting?

What is the anti-war argument???

We tried peaceful diplomatic means of disarmament for the past 12 years. The war was never officially ended in 1991, technically a cease-fire contingent on disarmament. Disarmament in the Ukraine and Kazakhstan did not take 12 years or 19 UN resolutions.

Iraq has expelled weapons inspectors. Put strict limitations on where they could go. Hid weapons that we know they have. Made the inspectors tell them where they wanted to inspect 24 hours in advance. Satellites have seen transport movements at these areas before inspectors arrive.

Saddam has invaded all his neighbors at one time. He gassed the Iraqi Kurds, killing thousands.

Reports have suggested the coalition forces found a 100-acre chemical weapons factory in Najaf today. <~Is this enough justification???

I think the people protesting have chosen to ignore the patience the USA has shown in the past 12 years. They have ignored the prevalent facts in this situation. I'm not sure if the people protesting know what they are trying to say. Yes, war is bad. No this isn't about oil or imperialism. Yes this is about doing the right thing and enforcing international mandates after 12 years of appeasement. This is about eliminating a Man who sees no problem with placing his own people in front of military targets so that there is more colateral damage. The same man who had the protesting "Human Shield" group bused to missle sites, power plants, and military command centers. Saddam has a history of aggression towards his neighboring countries.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Justified

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

ohsix · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject:

damn man. you could have at least quoted the rest of my post so it doesn't look like i'm against war or the president's actions. Smile

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Sorry Wes... I think everyone knows where we are both coming from on this issue. I think you support the same principles and ideals I do in this situation and back the USA and our Presidents action in this conflict.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Just using your set up for another rebuttal point...

ohsix · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 7:45 pm Post subject:

it's cool. just didn't want people thinkin i had a change of heart or somethin.

Ralph · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 8:14 pm Post subject:

A 100-acre chemical weapons factory in Najaf is a good argument for starters. If it's true then I tip my hat two you both, good call. No telling what that stuff would be used for and who it would be sold to.

I still think the ending of the war is only the begining of the Arab resistance/retailiation.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Ralph- Please support you opinions. I started this thread so that you would have a chance to put a supported argument up against my statement. What I am saying is that the opposition does not have a valid or cogent argument.

Why do you think Arab resistance will increase?

BillJ · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 9:20 pm Post subject:

I'm guessing that for many of the anti-war protesters nothing would change their mind. Some believe that this war is nothing but Bush's attempt to make his friends rich from Iraq's oil. Others feel that the death of any Iraqi civilians is enough reason to be against the war. And for those that don't trust the government and the Bush administration specifically, any "proof" of WMD will be questioned and probably assumed to be fabricated.

Zach M · Posted: Mar 23, 2003 10:55 pm Post subject:

The people that are against the war aren't listening to anyone. They will have ideas in their heads that won't change, no matter what information they are given. This war is NOT about oil. This war is about protecting our country and other countries from attacks by weapons of mass destruction. This war is about saving the people of Iraq. Some say that we are killing innocent civilians. How many have died under Saddam? Some Iraqi's will die, some American's will die. It is a sacrifice that will be made for the future of Iraq and its people and for the safety of the United States. Even if people have a personal dislike for President Bush, they should be supporting him, the government, and the troops that are fighting for our country. This war is justified and long overdue.

Mullet Man · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 132 City: SoCal

The people who are against the war are not happy with themselves. They are people who are just messed up in the head. They are the same people who will support the killing of babies at a pro choice rally and then fight for the lives of animals the very next day. I think it is such foolishness that they go and cause problems and fights, like macing police in the face, when they are doing a peace demonstration.

scott a · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 9810

i think its funny how all of the protesters seem to almost be on the brink of violently protesting their position of anti-war and violence.
i also think its funny how mtv is dealing with the war. every time i turn it on they are interviewing someone that is anti-war and they talk about americans dying for no reason...i dont understand it, the least they can do is interview people with different opinions.
i personally believe that bush is doing the right thing. yes american have and will die but its a price we have to pay. i dont mean to sound like i want people to die, i just dont think that we should go to war with the expectation that we arent going to have causalties.

Ralph · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 1:02 am Post subject:

BillJ & Zach M they are good observations and unexplainable except to say both sides of the argument have people who blindly follow there gut instincts without ever really thinking about them, any new information is filtered to whether it builds there case or is discarded.

Mullet man, thats a pretty blanket statement & does nothing to further the pro war
argument. All it does is make you look one dimensional.

Scott A, I can't fathom people who are anti war but use violence to legitimise there
point. Passion does funny things to some people I guess.

OK to the point, the solution to a problem cannot be found by using the same logic
that caused the problem, someone much smarter me said this a few years ago, those who are well schooled know who it is. The way I see it is the current Terrorist problem has been caused by the US foreign policy of the past, current policy is an extension of this. The reason that Arabs have resorted to terrorism is because they are not happy about they the US has interfered in "there" world, and they have no other significant way of response other than Terror, the US is an easy "soft" target for this type of warfare. Have you noticed how even the Arab enemies of Saddam rally behind him rather than support the US, Allah first, then Muslims, then other Arab's, then the rest of the world. Thats the way it is to that part of the world. For me the solution to this problem has to be framed less by wrong & right and more by cause & effect. Bombing Iraq is not the way to reduce Arab based terrorism.

Having said that if Iraq has biological weapons then the US must secure these weapons because of the domestic danger they represent to that nation. Before the conflict began I did not believe that they had these agents, now it seems I was wrong and so I change my stance on the invasion, in my view the danger to the US of inflaming the Arab world is more than offset by containing such a dangerous weapon so easily used & deployed domestically within the US. That having been said, if the US is to move forward it must realise that they have in a large part forced Arabs to use terror against them as the only option left to further there cause. To label these people as "evil" totally simplifies the issues and does not lend itself to a positive solution to the problem. Gone are the days are goodies and baddies, hopefully the world has grown up to the point to realise that reality is not like that (remember the cold war and the arms race?), everybody has motivations for there actions, understanding them provides the solution to the problem, violence and war suppresses it.

Once the war is over the US must for it's own good do what it can to understand and relate to the Arab point of view. The scope of the problem is much larger than personalities of Hussain or Ben Laden.

My 2c

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I e-mailed MTV with my thoughts on the way they are covering this war. Basically presented my argument that I stated at the top of this thread. I want to take a video camera to the people protesting on 2nd street in Long Beach and ask them a few questions. Then I would like to play this tape on some TV broadcast followed by the facts that refute the false assumptions made by the protesters.

I guess I'm a little upset at mass media right now...

jumalian · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 7625 City: san diego

Nor*Cal,

People are protesting in Belmont Shores? I used to live there and thought that was the last place anyone would protest. It's so mellow and kick back there.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Every weekend for a few monthes now. It's really weird. Right there in front of the Bank of America parking lot. I just laugh on my way to the bars.

Ralph- First things first... You ignored the fact that Saddam has in the past gased the Kurdish minority living in Northern Iraq. The world saw this happen. It was televised and photographed. There was never a doubt that he had these chemical. He has used them in the past and everyone knows this.

Terrorism is not a new thing. This has been an ongoing struggle since the mid-70's. Reagan even fought during his Presidency against terrorist organizations. It's a nature of a tiered economic system. It allows the 3rd world nations to have a bargaining tool with the Superpowers. This being a fact are we supposed to be a passive victim??? Or are we supposed to take the fight to them??? We have been attacked several times. Should we just accept it as a part of life??? No we should attack it at the source and make it known that countries haboring Terrorist and countries consorting with terrorist are a threat to us and as such will be dealt with.

Remember the Muslim religion is seperated into several factions. The extremist sect that is associated with terrorist believes in the destruction of the infidels. That includes everyone not a member of thier religion. This is not the outlook of mainstream Islam which is one of the most peaceful religions in the world. The majority of Muslims see Christians and Jews as people of the Book. This book being the first testament which is also the basis of their belief structure.

jumalian · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 7625 City: san diego

My take is this...

France, China and Russia (among many others) said that we need to give them a chance to disarm.

I say, we've given them 12 years worth of chances. Get rid of Saddam...that's it.

By the way, I'm ex-military and anti-war. In this case, though, I feel every resolutions were broken by Iraq and feel that the U.S. has no options but to attack Iraq.

Nor*Cal, protesting in Belmont Shores...that's funny!

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

There was more than just 9/11. They bombed our barracks in Saudi Arabia, there was a bombing of the sub floors of the Trade Centers a few years ago, they bombed the USS Cole, and other situations. It is time to take an active role in our defense. The animosity between our societies exist and will not go away. So we must defend our way of life...

jumalian · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 7625 City: san diego

And what I find funny is that some people say that terrorism and Saddam are no way related.

Riiiight. Are some people really that naive?

Ralph · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 2:35 am Post subject:

I didn't ignore the fact he had chemical weapons I understood the arms inspectors had dismanteled his ability to produce any more. When you think of the problem long term the important thing isn't the fact that he has or hasn't got them, it is why he feels he needs them. Invading Iraq is a band-aid solution to the Arab crisis, try not to think of in terms of years & think in terms of decades.

Terrorism in the '70's, huh you don't say? Well after 30 years of conflict to squash it, it has got worse not better, the more it is suppressed with force the more extreme it will become. You said that Regan had great success with Terrorism by being a heavy hitter, well it depends on your time frame! 9/11 say's otherwise.

I'm not suggesting being a passive victim, I'm suggesting the old solution of force is an outdated and temporary solution to the problem. It has been tried for over 30 years and the problem still remains, what are you suggesting, kill every Arab who might harbour ill feeling towards the US?

Jo, I think what people say is there is no link between Ben Laden & Saddam, which is quite plausable.

Ralph · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 2:37 am Post subject:

Why am I the only one banging the peaceful solution drum? Does no one else care, or am I quite deluded or naive?

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

Ralph,

One problem of your view is that you forget these are terrorists, not arabs. Terrorists are insane, they can not be appeased. One of the main things that angered Bin Laden is/was the presence of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia. Well, Saudi Arabai, which is a bunch of arabs, asked the U.S. to be there to protect them from Iraq. The terrorist organizations such as the Taliban and the Iraqi regime commit horrible crimes against the innocent, those who are truly humanitarian should probably want more interference on our part. Many people feel that U.S. lives should only be used to protect other U.S. lives, not save non-U.S. lives. Whenever you are facing evil, irrational, and insane people, the only real choice is violence.

Nick
________
Suzuki Gsx600F

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

Well Ralph, I don't remember anyone saying we should kill every Arab with ill feelings towards the US. If you say that old solution of force is outdated, and it doesn't work, then propose another solution that will work. It's easy to say that war is not the right solutions buit unless you make a suggestion of another way to deal with the problem we are left with the choice of laying down to wait for something bad to happen, or to go in to protect our way of life. Of those choices, I say we protect ourselves.

you say that

ohsix · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 7:43 am Post subject:

MadDog- very good points. My thoughts exactly.

Ralph- you argue your points in a very respectable manner and with knowledge. That is something i had not yet seen of the anti-war people. I would be all for not going to war if there was a peaceful, effective alternative. I'm pretty much reitterating MadDog's statements but war is the best solution to this problem. I understand that many, if not all, people do not like war, but there is absolutely no other way to deal with this. We have tried appeasement, extensions of deadlines, and every other possible solution and the situation has not improved.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Ralph- Terrorism has been an issue for decades. Let me clue you in on a little more. A big cause of recent (last 50 years) anti-western feelings in the Middle East is due to this little place called Israel. Look up the history on how Israel was created starting with British control over Palestine around 1917 and 1918. From the creation of Israel we saw the rise of terrorist groups like the PLO.

Terrorism is not a new thing. You constantly point out 9/11 but that was not the first terrorist attack on US soil. It however was the attack that provoked action. 9/11 is the turning point where America decided it is time to take action against those attacking us.

The UN inspectors had always stated that there were mass quantities of missing biological and chemical agents that Iraq had previously listed. I think you have jumped to conclusions based on the reports of a very biased news media.

As for the peace drum and alternatives... If you have been reading all our post you will have realized the peace drum was beat to death the last 12 years... Your argument may have been valid in 1992 but the time for negotiations have passed. There must consequences

Nathan Newman · Addict Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 711 City: Baylor

Sorry guys, but this gonna sound very 1 dimensional...
BOOM!!!

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I don't get it? Peace Drum or Bombs over Iraq?

Nathan Newman · Addict Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 711 City: Baylor

bombs
boom
liberating iraq from oppression of evil man
boom!!!

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I almost think the protest are just about civil disobedience. No real cause. MTV keeps airing people talking about crime problems in the USA. Thing is without war there are no protest about the crime problem. Schooling issues are for the most part handled at the state level so that's another sign of ignorance. Just seems they are all missing the point.

B-rad · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 2:48 pm Post subject:

Que some outkast "Bombs over Baghdad".... I think I'm goning to start breaking that out every couple of days when they march here in Austin and close off the congress ave. bridge. Damn protesters not leaving the bridge makes my drive home more of a pain in the @$$ than it already is.

Andy · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 43 City: Syracuse,NY

I totally agree with what your saying Nor Cal. Right now I am just curious to hear some more views from people who are against the war and reasons for their opinions.

BillJ · Posted: Mar 24, 2003 6:23 pm Post subject:

There is an interesting and disturbing article on si.com (yes, Sports Illustrated) titled Son of Saddam. As it turns out Uday Hussein has been in charge of Iraq's Olympic and national soccer teams since 1984 and thought he could motivate athletes through fear. I never expected to find an article about Iraq in SI but it shows what type of people we are up against in Saddam and his sons.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/

Nathan Newman · Addict Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 711 City: Baylor

yeah, he's even more demented then his daddy

pedro · Posted: Mar 25, 2003 1:50 am Post subject:

The 12 year thing doesn't make sense.

UN Resolution 242 gave Israel instructions to leave the occupied territories of Palestine.

That was 30 years ago. Why isn't Mr Bush & his love-puppy Mr Blair after Israel too ?