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Neognosis
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 Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:46 am Post subject: First Gay marriage, now THIS!!! |
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Covenant Marriage:
Covenant Marriage laws generally provide that a couple can choose, at the time of marriage or later, to have slightly more limited grounds for no-fault divorce in their marriage. The couple is required to get marriage education or counseling before their marriage (or the conversion of their marriage to a covenant marriage), and also before divorcing.
So to those of you who feel that gay marriage will change your vows or somehow lessen YOUR marriage somehow, doesn't this do that much, much more efficiently?
I mean, I'm just married, but if you have a COVENANT marriage, doesn't that make my marriage, by default, LESS?
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ontrider
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Bored at work CB?
I've actually changed my stance on the issue after re-reading your posts you've convinced me. I think homo's should be allowed to get married. As long as it's to someone of the opposite sex.  |
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:50 am Post subject: |
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I don't get it... is this is a new type of marriage in the eyes of the law?
What state is this being proposed?
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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It is a type of marriage that makes it much harder to get a divorce based on my limited knowledge on the subject. I can't remember where I've heard of it.
Kind of a cool form of marriage competition. 
....oh yeah, well you're not as married as I am.... 
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earlcombearl
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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As a Catholic, I know you take a covenant before God for your commitment to your wife, but what is this topic you are discussing.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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How nice, they are putting in an express lane at the family court.
That is absolutely horrible.
cameraboy, link us up, we are too lazy to look for ourselves.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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seems unnecessary.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Dave W, It sounds like the opposite - you can just up and divorce whenever you feel like it, using predefined conditions (no court battles), given you take their "divorce class".
That is my take on what CB has written anyhow.
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Leggester
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Dorks
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oshensurfer
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Leggester,
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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I believe cameraboy is saying that the covenant marriage "dilutes" standard marriage in the opposite manner that homosexual marriage does.
While many people feel that allowing homosexuals to marry lessens the meaning of marriage, here people are taking marriage to the next level, and in doing so, they are lessening the meaning of a traditional marriage.
At least that's my take on CB's post.
I believe covenant marriages are much harder to divorce from, not easier.
I'm having a hard time finding a link to a story that really spells it all out.
This is the best I could come up with so far: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20127
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BR_WB
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| I saw on the news how Mike Hucakbey (sp?), the Govenor of Arkansas got a Covenant Marriage. |
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: |
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From the article.
| Quote: | The rules of a covenant marriage require couples to complete premarital counseling, sign an affidavit and pledge to seek marital counseling if problems arise, with the option for divorce limited to reasons like abuse, abandonment and adultery, according to a feature on the movement in The Tennessean newspaper in Nashville Jan. 26.
If a troubled marriage fits the criteria and cannot be saved through counseling, couples with children must wait 18 months before a divorce is granted, and couples without children must wait one year. |
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How do you apologize to a friend for something like that? Flowers would not be enough.
Last edited by Dave W on Feb 16, 2005 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: |
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thats what it seems like to me. That there are stricter rules for getting a divorce. By eliminating the no-fault divorce where they say "we just don't love each other anymore." You now have to cheat or abuse or something more substantial.
Like I said, seems unnecessary.
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earlcombearl
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Makes sense. I think all marriages should be that way, if people are seriously devoted enough to dropping the "will you marry me card", they should have enough intestinal fortitude to work through it.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Dave W, that does make it sound the opposite of what I thought.
This sounds like yet another fanatical religious group trying to impose their will on the people.
 HMMMMM sounds like I could replace "fanatical religious group" with "fanatical homosexual group" and in the end I get the same result: someone trying to F with marriage as society accepts it presently.
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Wakebrad wrote: | | You now have to cheat or abuse or something more substantial. |
Hopefully this won't lead to people beating their spouse or cheating just to get a divorce. 
| chavez wrote: | | This sounds like yet another fanatical religious group trying to impose their will on the people. |
Ummm..... it is voluntary chavez.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
While many people feel that allowing homosexuals to marry lessens the meaning of marriage, here people are taking marriage to the next level, and in doing so, they are lessening the meaning of a traditional marriage.
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Yea, that's what I was gettin' at. In my opinion, THIS decreases my marriage more than adding gays to marriage.
Of course, in my view, NOTHING any state or church can do will affect my marriage at all, short of dissolving it or changing the tax code.
But if adding gays to marriage makes it somehow less serious or whatever, doesn't the idea of "covenant" marriage do that as well?
I say people can get a covenant marriage if they want, but this whole thing is stupid. If you are determined to honor your vows, why would you need or want a covenant marriage anyway? To make it harder on yourself if it does turn out to be a mistake? What the hell is the point?
I stay married because of my vows, (and of course because I want to) not because of the state laws.
Bills are presented in Ohio, Arkansas and one or two other states so far.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-cov1.htm
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20127
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Ummm..... it is voluntary chavez.
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but so is gay marriage...
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Hopefully this won't lead to people beating their spouse or cheating just to get a divorce.
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I thought about that but that would mean you're at fault. Which means you would probably get less or none out of the settlement. I don't think you'd want to risk that.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Dave W, step 1, make it available. Step 2, make it mandatory. Maybe they see the wisdom in the 'crawl, walk, run' theory? 
Anyhow, I actually agree with CB here:
| cameraboy wrote: |
I stay married because of my vows, (and of course because I want to) not because of the state laws.
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | | I say people can get a covenant marriage if they want, but this whole thing is stupid. If you are determined to honor your vows, why would you need or want a covenant marriage anyway? To make it harder on yourself if it does turn out to be a mistake? What the hell is the point? |
The whole thing is pretty sad in my opinion.
I don't know. Maybe it's not a bad idea. Apparently there are enough people in our society who get married without really thinking it through. Sure, not all divorces occur due to the vows not being taken seriously, but there appear to be A LOT of people who just get married on a whim without really planning on working through the problems that are bound to occur.
But, the people who don't take marriage seriously ARE NOT the sort of people who are going to "voluntarily" sign up for a covenant marriage. The people signing up for these things are probably part of a demographic that is much less likely to divorce anyways. It might help some of them out down the road, but I really don't think this "covenant marriage" concept is going to have any kind of dramatic effect on the divorce rates.
When you get married, mean what you say at the altar and live by it. End of story. No need to develop some sort of new kind of marriage to show that you mean it more than the next person.
But.... there are A LOT of people who just don't think it through....
Cameraboy, you could always just go for it and participate in this new contest of marital "one-upmanship". Go for it, get the upgrade.
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | | Dave W, step 1, make it available. Step 2, make it mandatory. Maybe they see the wisdom in the 'crawl, walk, run' theory? |
Logical fallacy Chavez. The slippery slope argument doesn't hold water.
For the most part, Christianity in the United States is losing ground in societal issues, not gaining ground. When was the last time that heard a court ruling in favor of a Christian influence on society?
Either way, we all vote for the politicians we want to represent us. It would take a lot more votes than the Religious Right currently has available to make something like covenant marriage mainstream. Considering Christianity is on the decline in the United States the situation isn't likely to change in favor of covenant marriage in the future either.
Sure, bans on gay marriage were upheld in many states in the past election, but there is a huge difference between gay marriage and covenant marriage. One issue will drive voters to the polls, one will not.
My prediction is that covenant marriage is little more than a passing fad because many people would agree with cameraboy's stance and feel that it is unneccessary. At most, covenant marriage will remain a voluntary option well into the future.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Dave W, uh-huh. Riiiiight. Lessons have been learned from the likes of Gavin Newsome - if you want something controversial done, better take it the baby steps route or you might get burned. It is not a slippery slope, it is a logical progression to further an agenda.
I agree that Christianity is losing ground in the US as a whole, but certain areas (such as the "bible belt") it is my opinion just the opposite is happening.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Logical fallacy Chavez. The slippery slope argument doesn't hold water.
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Stop stealing my style.
How about this: we make ANOTHER marriage called "super special marriage phase 3" and to get it not only do you have to take classes, you have to get tattoed, and you can NEVER be granted a divorce unless you cut off a finger. And even then, all your possessions get burned in a big bonfire by the whole community and any children from the marriage get crucified. And you have to wear a sign that says "marriage failure" for the next 5 years.
Now THAT would help end divorce. (of course, it would also make a mockery of marriage, as people just wouldn't get divorced officially, but would just live seperately).
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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yep, this is just a showboating fad. Anybody who wouldnt do these things in a regular marriage wasnt serious about marriage to begin with. it is nothing more than a prenup that has been around forever.
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oshensurfer
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: |
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It's as unecessary as revising the law to include "gay marriage", IMO.
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:18 am Post subject: |
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It does kinda hit on a question Ive asked some of you before, but not others:
In todays society, why would any non-religious person get married? Man is obviously not monogomistic in nature, and its only the religious belief that he is required to be. Society has completely accepted unwed couple as legit parents and legit partners, so why? tradition? Tradition based on a belieg system you dont subscribe to? I know some of you married becuase it was important to your partner, but what is a personal reason for a non-relegious person to get married?? I know I wouldnt!!
Most religious people who take their marriage seriously would probably subscribe to the mandates of the covenant marrage already. no need for special names.
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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jason_ssr, it is necessary to take advantage of certain privelidges afforded to 'married' people in places that have not adopted or do not recognize 'civil unions'.
Just get 'married' by a judge. Takes the religion right out of the ceremony/equation, for me anyhow.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In todays society, why would any non-religious person get married?
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I got married because it was important to her
We wanted to build a life together that was recognized as unified under the law, ie joint ownership of property, dependant health insurance, inheritance, yada yada.
Basically all the things that a marriage entitles you to under the law, with far less paperwork than making everything "domestic partnership" like under the law.
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Dave W
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Tax breaks? Medical benefits?
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chavez
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Basically all the things that a marriage entitles you to under the law, with far less paperwork than making everything "domestic partnership" like under the law.
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That's a better worded version of what I was getting at.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Plus, even in this liberal society that is falling apart, people still give marriage (legal or religious) a certain weight that they don't give to other relationships.
IE:
Doctor, how is she!?!
Who are you?
I'm her um, boyfriend? Domestic Partner?
I'm sorry, I can only speak to family
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oshensurfer
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
IE:
Doctor, how is she!?!
Who are you?
I'm her um, boyfriend? Domestic Partner?
I'm sorry, I can only speak to family
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cameraboy, I don't think that is a fair example of what truly goes on in a hospital or illness situation. I asked my doc once and he said as long as it's not a patient confidentiality thing he doesn't discriminate on who he tells if in his judgement they are in a "relationship" with the person.
I think this example is propaganda. No offense.
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DJew Jake
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:50 am Post subject: |
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jason_ssr, Because one day you get old and it gets hard to pickup girls at the bar so you have to cling to one.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Feb 16, 2005 10:58 am Post subject: |
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cameraboy, I don't think that is a fair example of what truly goes on in a hospital or illness situation.
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It's just an illustration. We all know that people give marriage higher esteem than other relationships.
But seriously, if the blood family hates you and they tell the doctor that they don't want you around their dying daughter, and you're just the boyfriend or girlfriend, you're SOL.
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