The comtamination starts

[itch]

I knew this was bound to happen when Kent started buying everyone!!!!!!!
On the Liquid Force web site you can link to Hardline Ropes. WHAT????
Hardline was the best rope maker in the industry (not that they make crap now but I have issues with Kent and Hype). SOON boys and girls we will be able to visit one web site and it will link all the Kent Monopoly. Look out kids if you don't watch it and do some thing one company will set the trends and the PRICES for the entire industry.
www.liquidforce.com
itch

On a side note I didn't know LF was starting their own film company and is justin as in justin stevens? Interesting?????????????

[vawakemonster]

thats wierd i saw that a few days ago i was like wtf

[jumalian]

triton sports consisted of blindside, doubleup, hardline and wet tech. since kent bought triton, the companies were split up;

blindside and doubleup are marketed w/ o'brien.
hardline will be making ropes and handles for lf (beginning w/ the '06 line, i think).

[Wakebrad]

if prices start to get over-inflated we'll just see more rider-based companies come out of the woodwork.

[itch]

Why would you say that Brad?
Can you enlighten us?

Joe I know I just wondered how long before the melt down.
itch

[nuckledragger]

You'd think the commission that approves and denies the acquisitions of these wake related companies would see that there is a monopoly growing here. Someone is asleep on the job and Kent is taking full advantage of it.

[Brit Rider]

I'm gonna back Brad up, I agree.

if prices keep getting higher but the sport is still growing theres got to be more shmaltz's out there ready to start designing/building stuff for riders.

only problem i guess is if they could produce it any cheaper....

if you look at board sales right now (not sure if this is the same in the US as UK) but high end boards (Upper - LF, DU, HL etc...) are way outselling the low end stuff (Free motion, hydroslide etc..). so more rider driven high end companies would most likely be welcome right now so long as the market doens't get too flooded.

[CHiLi DaWg]

So, how much does Kent own or partially own now? He's involved with HO, LF, and CWB isn't he? What else?

[itch]

People do you not see the problem first there is a slowing of growth already we used to be the fastest growing sport. We have dropped to third or fourth. If Kent owns it all and they have all the money I have shops that would love to carry ROC but when 90% of your customers ask for the Kent Monopoly you dont dare take a risk on a board or a company. Thats were I am at right now, I have half of my over three hundred shops that will not because no one will take a risk.
And as far as the goverment stopping the take over, the industry is small potatos they don't even know the industry exsists. It is up to us as a consumer to demand the company that is making a difference in the industry wether its in board design or how they are helping the sport grow. If we refuse to settle for stolen ideas or copy cat products it will make a difference it might be slow but it will work.

[cwaker4]

itch makes a good point, the industry is blowing up, boards are already too expensive and i dont think thayll be getting cheaper anytime soon, as long as these 'monopolies' keep growing.

[nuckledragger]

...well the only way to prevent the monopoly from growing is to support their competition. The problem is that most consumers have no idea they are supporting the monopoly. There are only a select few, mostly riders that frequent these sites, that know where all the money actually ends up. If the monopoly continues to do a good job with the marketing they will continue to win the game.

[jumalian]

[Bowen]

[itch]

Joe I would disagree to some point you and I know that some of the best inovations in the last ten years have come from the small ROC with Nelly and his canted foot base to Herbie Fletcher making the molded fins first. Some of the major companies are just now using these ideas that were brought about ten years ago. Some of todays boards like the Funded Tech and the Ricky G stuff is pushing. What do think these smaller companies need to do ta make their stuff better. Can anyone explain what they think would be a great idea or possiable new inovation. If you owned A smaller roc what would be important hot new board or big time name riding what would a roc have to do to catch your eye or even better make a shop buy it?
itch

[Bowen]

ROC?...can someone help me out w/ its meaning?

Small companies need big names, most of them are pushing the sport forward the most. For Instance, I just recently heard of Funded Tech...I think it was in a post about a month ago, I looked into them and liked what I saw (I have no way of demoing though). If Funded had a big named rider I would have probably known about them a long time ago...(or do they and I'm just an idiot?)

[itch]

Rider Owned
Bowen your not they have had some imput from some of the best (Josh Smith)
I think a lot of what Funded is about is staying true to the sport not the cash there for they don't mind staying underground. Kinda the way Erich is taking Integrity and Stay Gold. So you identify with names more than design? If the right name is on the board do you thinkshops and consumers would be clamering for that board?
itch

[Bowen]

Yes. Look at how many Parks sales there are compared to how many motive sales there are. You nailed it in the earlier post when you said that the highest level stuff is selling the best. It is selling the best because the big named pro's ride it. How many Noobies do we have come on here a month and ask us 'which size parks is best for me?' or something along those lines. If you have a big name you will get more recognition. There are only a few examples I can think of, and they are all big name companies with regard to board design. The fish, the Roam, and the Byerly are all designs that intrigue me.

As far as the name goes, i am talking about sales nation and world wide. Your average rider knows only the top named pros, like parks, shawn, harf, shane...We on this site have an advantage (or at least we think we do) because (we like to think) we know more about the basics and design of the sport. I personally don't care about the rider. I will gladly buy a funded if I ride it and like it, it is just easier for me to get acces to a big named brand.

[jumalian]

as crappy as it sounds, Bowen is right in that small companies need big name riders. hell, whether it's a big company or small company, people need to associate the board/bindings w/ a popular rider.

itch, you're right with nelson and fletcher. the problem is;

a. fletcher isn't making boards anymore (which totally sucks) and badass never really had the marketing power that their competition did.
b. nelson designs boards for companies that don't have the marketing power that other companies do, which sucks cause i've been a big fan of nelson designed boards.

and with all due respect to gator boards and ricky g, and not to disrespect you, but i think ricky g's board isn't one to use as an example when you're talking about products that are pushing it. correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the gb gonzales almost a carbon copy of the old hype premier? (coincidentally, hype stole the premier design from badass, which coincidentally again, gb bought the rights to) so, in that sense, the roc needs to come up w/ a sick board design. couple that w/ a big name, that company will have some success.

[itch]

What did you mean about design and big name companies the fish the roam you do realize both of those designs are just rehased old designs. Scotts board will always be new I don't think he and Butch run out of ideas, if thats possiable.

So if company A signs say rider A and his board was atleast up to par with everyone else's and he was supported by advertising you think that his board wuld sell? Who do you think would be able todo this Harf Shapiro, what about some of the younger riders JD or Froggy?
itch

[jumalian]

[Bowen]

Does anyone know fletcher?...and if so, if a ROC came and asked him to work for/with them would he? I got hardcore into wakeboarding a little late so I missed the BadAss boards, I do remember their excellent marketing in WBM though...I think I still may have a few on my walls (the half naked chicks standing waste deep in perfect water w/ floating boards). Yes the GB Gonzales is pretty much the old Hype premier...w/ what I've heard is a little more abrupt rocker...but IDK.

Would it be possible to design a regular board, that might have some flexibility such as the roam? Just an idea.

Also, is there any way to stop the Triton monopoly, or would the gov't say he is allowing his companies to compete so it isn't one?

[jumalian]

[Bowen]

jumalian, my b...

[itch]

Joe the G is the original badass mold that Hype stole the premier was that mold plus tweaked unfortunatly the tweaks that made that Hype made changed the board charistics and we didn't get to see what the BadAss board would do until GB put it out as the pickett. ricky loved the board and then his graphics went on it.
I have been thinking about Herbie I know Gator still uses him, do you think if someone threw say 50 g's at him he might start shaping wakeboards again?
itch

guys I would like to talk more if your up for it maybe in a chat

[electricsnow]

Itch, I just wanted to say that I agree with you on a lot of this stuff, but I especially wanted to mention the nelson/built in cants thing. greg's boards really were ahead of their time and I have a world of respect for that guy...yeessssss! He's freaking awesome...

[Wakebrad]

The only problem with Kent taking over is if he starts over-inflating the prices of the products. Lets say in 3 years you can't find a brand name wakeboard for less than $5-600. A ROC would pop up and offer boards of very similar design for $300. It doesn't cost that much to manufacture a board. I mean funded tech was selling theirs for $500 and it was using way better materials than anything Kent is.

It would be very easy to come up with a design. Slowly most wakeboards are converging into a very similar shape. That being the subtle 3-stage board with a 4 fin setup (whether that be molded fin or screw in). Creating a board that would perform like a Premiere, Substance, Nelson wouldn't be difficult.

With the internet being so big they wouldn't even have to sell it in shops. You could just buy it online. They could have a little hint for demoing (this board rides a lot like a Premiere so if you want to demo it, go try a premiere).

While john newbie would probably still buy the premiere from the store for $600, we could always find boards for $300 so it doesn't really hurt me..

The other thing is prices really can't get inflated that much. If I had to pay $600 for a wakeboard I'd own 1 for the rest of my life. But because I can find them for $300, I'll think about upgrading every couple years. They know what their price range needs to be in. So I doubt they would start over-inflating the prices.

[Liquid*Force*Rider]

Why doesn't it show Steve McKinley on there Team page?

[LSARyder]

I see some intelligent people here making great remarks, statements and that really know the market. Ever think maybe us (wakeboarder.com) readers have a pretty dam good grasp of what the market desires, what influences people ect ect... I just got back form LA, I was there meeting with a guy that manufactures board presses, base grinders, etc ect for snowboarding as well as teh wakeboarding industry. He is a genious, very innovative and really knows the techincal end of board design, shaping, using new cores ect ect.. IMO all monopolies in a market can be taken or at least can be forced to give up a share with a ROC or any other small company assuming the marketing strategy is right and the product meets the consumer needs... As in most other board sports people always tend to go to the big daddy.. IE burton, hype, LF ect ect.. But the trend is starting to wearoff.. look at Roam snowboards, a ROC that is taking off HUGE... IMO GB boards are killer, I got a caddy last year and will take that anyday over my previous boards which where a belmont and a parks... I went to GB because of the fact they where a ROC and I liked the way they presented themselves. I guess it all comes down to marketing, thinking outside the box, being creative, be innovative with trying new composites and technology on your boards... So what am I getting at here...

I think from the users on this site a ROC coudl be formed that could blow up huge.. why? Lets see... there are many people here with the finacial backing power to get a company started and maintain and aggressive marketing campaign. 2.) I have seen many pics/ vids of riders on here that can throw it down.. give these guys/ gals some boards and get them in comps, 3.) we have the internet at our fingertips.. internet marketing is huge!! 4.) I would assume that between everyone here there is some very good boardshop contacts ect ect.. I mean the list is endless, possiblities? I woudl say so.... lets do this!

[jason_ssr]

a couple of things... I think our board designs and ideas are going to go completely custom if monopoly kills the market. Thing is, custom handmade boards are not hard to make. look at other water board sports like surfing or kiteboarding. Wakeboarding is a good size sport and we have about 6 board companies really present in the business. Kiteboarding is much smaller, though it is now the fastest growing sport on the planet, but has 50 or 60 working, profitable board "companies". When you go on a kiteboarding forum, there is a complete section on designing and making custom boards. Instead of our shapers being hired by some company to throw out some cookie cutter design, our shapers should work with a rider to make a board precisely shaped for their riding. You can make a board that is lighter and more durable than a production board. you can use a stronger material and leave out unnecessary inserts and what not. If you ever get a chance, look at Jimmy Lewis in Hawaii. He shapes boards for many sports and each one is a work of art.

[jason_ssr]

www.jimmylewis.com

[jb]

i dont wnat to say too much, but me and a few other people have some tricks up our sleeves that will see the light of day this spring...

the problem is, in order to get a company off the ground, you almost always have to essentially buy your way into the market; be it through cheap boards or promotions or whatever. this can prove to be a huge expense in itself but its necessary because you cant expect people to trust you and your design when they have never heard of you. its a way of building street cred.

then you have to advertise, which is absolutely ridiculous. not so much in alliance, but a full color page in wbm is about 7500 dollars per month.
[in my opinion, the world publications monopoly is just as big as the kent monoploy. think about it; they have wbm and waterski mags, and they organize and hold the majority of wakeboard contests out there (pro contests anyway) if those aren't a bunch of opportunities for politics to determine how things go, i dont know what is.]

i got off track there, but my point is its so hard for a company to get to the point where they can afford to be a presence in this industry; its a very scary thing for myself, who is in the sitaution as we speak. i just have to hope that people will be able to see or organization and products for what they are and that they realize that we're in it for the right reasons.

by the way, this has been the most enjoyable post i have read on here in two years. keep going!

[NAW]

Very interesting topic. And one that echos alot of conversations between reps/riders/companies and the shops.

The bottom line is, as passionate as some of us feel about supporting rider owned BOARD companies, the shops and the everyday consumer is not as passionate nor do they care about ROC.

I ride Gator boards, not to say I wouldn't ride another board or haven't, but at this time, it's the board for me. I just hope they can keep sht together and not fizzle out and be another board company that was laid to rest by the mismanagment of a group of unorganized top dogs that may have had something if a clear mission, vision and strategy was defined and implemented. (not saying this will happen, nor do I presume to know the management at GB, just generalizing).

If GB wants to get serious about selling product, they need to get it in the hands of consumers. Give those reps incentives to get out to the grassroots events and demo days to put the product in front of the consumers to attract those 'ride before buy' people. Not drive around on a bus to a small portion of the wakeboarding population (although that does help). It's ultimately up to those who come face to face with the consumer and shops to push the brands. ROC companies need to get serious about this if they want to succeed....And it's much less expensive then some other marketing channels and very effective!

A full page ad in WBM will bring brand recognition, but that's only one part of the product sales equation.

[Bowen]

[matt1808]

anybody want to post a list of all the board companies owned by Kent?

[CHiLi DaWg]

NAW,