without war

mobius · Outlaw Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 119 City: Hilliard

it seems everyone has an opinion about war these days. lets have some opinions on what you think this country would be like were it not for its wars.

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

If we didn't have any wars, we'd all be British...or maybe Native American
________
Marijuana Test

Rocko · Posted: Mar 11, 2003 12:18 pm Post subject:

if we didn't have war, i think we'd have much more 9/11's taking place. although i hate to say it.

mobius · Outlaw Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 119 City: Hilliard

my home town would be part of mexico (AZ)

Jim M · Wakeboarder.com Freak Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Posts: 2933

Without there ever being a war, we would be primitive and simple because technology wouldn't ever be pushed. We would probably all be crammed in Europe and wouldn't have wakeboarding, that would suck. War equals competition and progression and industrial improvements. "We need a good war" -George Carlin

But seriously, I heard something last night and I think its so true, a guy said all the Bush haters are going to be apologizing when this whole thing pans out, once there is actual reform in Iraq and hopefully one dead-ass dictator. The war protestors won't be persuaded no matter what, but luckily they don't carry any real weight on this planet- just on their own.

Jim M · Wakeboarder.com Freak Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Posts: 2933

The way I see it is the UN is more concerned with whats right and whats good for mankind. It sounds idealistic but hey it is about life, and life is a big deal. If our actions involve war and inevitably death, well so be it, because it will be determined that its for the good of mankind.

And this isn't an instance of Bush just trying to be a tough guy. That is an extremely simple thing to say and I hope anyone that thinks that gets their hair stuck in the gears of a combine engine. Alright thats it for me Cool

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I heard from a few different sources that a bunch of those Human Shield people are leaving Iraq. I guess they realized what Saddam was like when he restricted where the could be placed. The original thought was to shield the schools and hospitals. Saddam had them placed around power plants and military bases.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

Lakebu · Outlaw Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 158 City: NorCalif.

"If Saddam Hussein fails to comply and we fail to act or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of sanctions and ignore the commitments he's made? Well, he will conclude that the international community's lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on doing more to build an arsenal of devastating destruction. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. The stakes could not be higher. Some way, someday, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."
-President Bill Clinton in 1998

wake152 · Posted: Mar 12, 2003 3:20 am Post subject:

scary stuff

WRRide · Posted: Mar 12, 2003 11:35 am Post subject:

I don't think there is a clear cut answer in the situation in which we have been put and put ourselves in. I don't think we will find out the true outcome of this war for years to come. For now we will just have to wait and see.

WRRide · Posted: Mar 12, 2003 11:35 am Post subject:

I don't think there is a clear cut answer in the situation in which we have been put and put ourselves in. I don't think we will find out the true outcome of this war for years to come. For now we will just have to wait and see.

Lakebu · Outlaw Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 158 City: NorCalif.

The UN is not opposed to "war;" it's opposed to U.S. victory. The UN works to steal money for all these Third World nations, rather than lift them up to our standard. It seeks to delegitimize and weaken us because of envy and fear. Guinea is now running the Security Council, for example. I don't want to pick on Guinea, but they don't have electricity except for a few hours a week. Meanwhile, Iraq is in charge of the disarmament conference and Libya is heading the one on human rights!

Jeremy Coe · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 408 City: Auckland

Jim M, That is a typically american thing to say. Do you realise that only the American people really want this war? Millions of people in Britain are opposed to it...and for you to say that countries like France and Russia and Germany dont matter? What an arrogant sod! Do you realise what perception of America the rest of the world has??? I definitely agree that Saddam is a worry...but you have to admit that there is some degree of revenge seeking going on here for 9/11......Bush is not a hero by a long stretch of the imagination.

DaveBrowning · Posted: Mar 12, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject:

We should undoubtedly kick So-Damn-Insane's arse to hell and back! Make him cry like a baby! Laughing

Cruel World · Criminal Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 55 City: Waterford, MI

You can't say America is arrogant based on one person's views or a group's views. I agree there are a lot of arrogance in this country, or maybe it is pride. The two can be confused. I think I understand why much of the world thinks America is arrogant.

America remains the only super-power. I think generally speaking American's want to help make a better life for other's in the world; as well as here. I believe American's generally think that things are pretty good here, with a system that works pretty well. That is probably why America is involved so much around the world.

The alternative would be American ignoring the rest of the world. What would happen then? Accusations of serperatism and an uncaring nature. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Also, regarding Bush. Though I am nervous about a war with Iraq, I think Bush has the best interest of America and the world at heart. I just wish he could convey it better. Think of it this way, if you were President and a major sneak attack occured to your country killing thousans of innocent civilians from around the world, what would you do? I'm willing to bet you will do everything possible to ensure something similar or worse doesn't happen again. I don't think this is revenge for 9/11, but 9/11 sure opened America's eyes to the dangers of the world. It taught us we can no longer wait for things to solve themselves. It taught us we have to stand up for what we believe in, we have to defend.

Also, I have read quite a bit on Iraq, I don't claim to be an expert. But, with everything Hussein has done, can you really say this guy should be a Leader? Can you really believe weapons inspections are working? They haven't worked in over a decade. Do you really think Hussein isn't diabolical enough to use what he has? Do you really think Hussien wouldn't give these weapons to people to sneak into America or other countries?

All I know, is if the anti-war people get their way, I hope to hell they are right. For everyones sake.

Sorry for the rant. Bad day.

Jim M · Wakeboarder.com Freak Joined: 17 Jan 2003 Posts: 2933

Oh chill out. I wasn't referring to European nations, I have nothing but respect for them and their positive impact to the UN and would never say otherwise. I question Bush as well, all of us do. You don't know me and I sure don't stand behind whatever nonsense you tried to interpret. My comment about anti-war protesters is just referring to the majority the hippies over here that spark up and protest whatever is on their little hippie agenda. Meet a few, you will know what I mean.

War in this instance is inevitable, regardless of what I say or what you think about me or America. I honestly believe and hope that the outcome will be benificial to the Iraqi nation and especially to the threatened areas around Iraq. I am not worried about the reputation of Bush, and the reputation of the American people and our beliefs will always be construed. I tell you what though, I am very free and very happy.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Here's the thing that gets me. The media and sheepish public make statements about Bush being an idiot but he still graduated from Yale and Harvard with an MBA. Kind of hard for an idiot to graduate from 2 Ivy League schools. His image is based of the terrible reporting of a liberal media.

Bush is doing what he feels in the best interest of his people and the world. I think he has strong convictions to keep forcing the issue even though the support of our Allies has waivered. The White House knows what they are doing and see a threat to the security of American freedom. If something threatens the USA then is will have an adverse effect on the rest of the world.

Lakebu · Outlaw Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 158 City: NorCalif.

The Iraqi People Want to Know
When Mr Bush Will Get Tough

By Michael Rubin, visiting fellow
The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
The Daily Telegraph,August 13, 2001

ON May 18, the day after Great Britain proposed lifting United Nations sanctions on all civilian goods in Iraq, a taciturn Iraqi farmer asked me: "Why does the West talk about Saddam's war crimes on one day, but reward him the next?"

Such is the perception of ordinary Iraqis, who understand Saddam, and are incredulous at how the Western press and public so readily accepts Saddam's propaganda. Saddam Hussein wants the West to believe that sanctions are to blame for suffering in Iraq. He spares no effort to control the spin from Iraq: his party controls all the television stations and newspapers. Journalists visiting Iraq accept Iraqi government escorts; even when reporters escape from their minders, most Iraqis hesitate to speak critically, since they know others are watching.

The Iraqi government bans those who report critically. Even the United Nations is not immune. The Baghdad government controls visas for UN officials to enter Iraq. For many UN workers from poor countries, a UN Iraq position is the best job they will ever have. But they must regularly renew their visas. If they do anything to displease Baghdad, they simply lose their UN jobs. At present, the Iraqi government is refusing more than 280 UN workers visas to do their jobs. High level UN officials live in isolated compounds or neighbourhoods, seeing other UN employees and political officials, but seldom ordinary people.

I was not subject to Saddam's restrictions. I entered Iraq illegally, without a visa. I spent nine months in the northern portion of the country, an area still under sanctions but free from Saddam's control for a decade. I taught more than 500 students at the region's three universities. I walked and drove without guards or drivers, doing my own shopping, and talking both with Iraqis from the safe haven and the portion of the country under Saddam's control. Free to speak while in the north, the ordinary Iraqis had startling things to say.

I shared a house in Sulaymaniyah with a visiting professor from Baghdad. He talked about how the Iraqi government organised anti-sanctions demonstrations. The dean of his college would order him to lead his students to the site of a protest; the names of any who failed to attend had to be given to security agents. If any demonstrator got airtime with foreign television, he would receive a monetary bonus. Following the protest, the Iraqi government would bus the poor to a reception hall for a fancy dinner. The professor was incredulous that people would assume that such protests had anything to do with popular sentiment.

Iraqis, likewise, could not believe that London and Washington did not understand the message of Saddam's 13-hour military parade on December 31.

"Don't you see that he's just thumbing his nose at the West?" one university friend asked. Saddam Hussein started two previous wars, and murdered 182,000 civilians (many with chemical weapons) in a 1988 orgy of violence and ethnic cleansing. Most Iraqis think Saddam will do it again if given the chance - especially once he develops a nuclear deterrent.

So what do Iraqis want? I was at a gym in Dahuk, Iraq, on February 16 when word came of the US bombing of Iraqi radar installations near Baghdad. People were excited. "Finally, the US shows it is serious," a businessman remarked as we sweated in the sauna. The euphoria did not last though. When I left Iraq, the mood was dark. Not only were American and British officials publicly discussing weakening the no-fly zones in response to Saddam's pressure, but they were also talking of easing sanctions.

Proponents of smart sanctions mean well, but then again so did Neville Chamberlain. They argue that by loosening controls on civilian goods, the West can ease the suffering of the Iraqi people still living under Saddam. While good in theory, sanctions revisions do nothing to force Saddam to actually feed his people. Many Iraqis in the north told of Iraqi government officials confiscating their UN ration cards. Unless the West addresses the root cause of the problem - Saddam - suffering in Iraq will continue.

The decline in infant mortality, the increase in fertility, and the general improvement in health in northern Iraq despite sanctions, show that sanctions are not the problem. It is hard for people to starve when, every month, the oil-for-food programme gives each individual nine kilograms of flour, three kilograms of rice, as well as sugar, tea, oil, milk, cheese, salt and meat and vegetable protein. Fruit, meat and vegetables are plentiful in the markets. While there are humanitarian tragedies in parts of the south, sanctions have little to do with it.

When Slobodan Milosevic went about the ethnic cleansing of Muslims, the West did not respond by giving him money or business contracts. It is curious that they do in Iraq.

Many Iraqis travel frequently to Baghdad to visit friends and family and hear the latest news. When they return, they speak with unanimity: Iraqis want Saddam ousted. People remember the pre-Saddam years when Iraq was a wealthy, cosmopolitan country, before Saddam's two disastrous wars and massive spending on palaces. They know that the morale of Saddam's army is very low. When Saddam's troops last entered the safe haven last December, 138 elite Iraqi troops threw down their weapons and surrendered the instant an American or British war plane flew low over Iraqi lines. No Iraqi wants to die for Saddam; they just want an opportunity to escape his regime.

Iraqis who have lived under Saddam's rule and have fought in his forces say that a change of regime can only happen from inside Iraq. While some in Washington may hope for a coup, it will not happen. In order for Iraqi divisions to move, the military and political commissars and intelligence apparatus must all sign them off. Even then, ammunition has to travel separately. The only promising option that will avert an humanitarian crisis is insurgency. Soldiers and people on the street say the only thing Saddam understands is force - he interprets negotiation as both weakness and an encouragement to threaten his neighbours.

Iraqis will support any group that has Washington and London's unequivocal backing, but they do not want a paper tiger. Washington and London could start by creating an atmosphere where internal opposition could develop. No-fly zones should expand to become no-drive zones, so that Saddam cannot use tanks against his own people. A muddle-through approach may be popular in the Foreign Office and the State Department, but it does not amount to leadership, nor does it solve the problem, nor does it make Saddam less of a threat to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey, Iran or the Iraqi people.

The Bush and Blair administrations must end the debate and take action. If America and Britain are serious, Saddam Hussein could be sharing a prison cell with Slobodan Milosevic tomorrow.

pedro · Posted: Mar 13, 2003 6:37 am Post subject:

Shouldn't there be a limit on the size of posts ? Or perhaps a stuff filter...

Leggester · Posted: Mar 13, 2003 7:13 am Post subject:

Naw, then you wouldn't be allowed to post Pedrosan

J_DOGG · Posted: Mar 13, 2003 8:28 am Post subject:

All I have to say about war and or peace.....

I hear "let's give peace a chance all the time these dayz"

I think we gave peace a chance didn't we? Weren't we in a time of peace when the twin towers got taken out? look how good peace treated us then....

It's like tryn to get rid of drug dealers in your hood, you can pick up all the little guys you want (Afghanistan), they keep being replaced they are expendable low level chumps. Eventually you need to go to the source (Sudham insane) the kingpin if you will. You have to cut the hand off that feeds the fire or the fire will burn on....

LATA

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Here's how I had it explained by one professor. We called a cease fire based on the elimination of certain weapons and changes in Iraq. Iraq has had 10+ years to make these changes and nothing has happened. Time is up.

pedro · Posted: Mar 13, 2003 5:41 pm Post subject:

Leggester

Good point, well made.

Ouch.

Pedro

Leggester · Posted: Mar 14, 2003 6:48 am Post subject:

Just having fun on a slow day Pedro.

J_DOGG · Posted: Mar 14, 2003 7:09 am Post subject:

It's called resolution 1441, The UN created it specifically for Iraq. Now the UN is acting like it never existed and they want to start all over again.

10 years is a long time to be on probation and never visit with your probation officer don't you think....

LATA