Toni Smith's protest of the U.S. flag

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

Dave, there is a difference in making people extremely angry, and making people panic in fear of there lives. If making people angry is just cause for them to become violent, then we have bigger problems. Saying that she can not express her opinion because it could make people angry, and in turn violent is against everything that this country is founded on. I support the decisions being made regarding the upcoming war. I think we should go in and kick Saddams asss. But one of the reasons to fight people like Saddam is to protect our rights to express our opinions openly. If we all lived in Iraq, and someone did what she did, they would be killed for it. Is that the society we want to live in? Or, is that the society we are trying to protect ourselves against.

E.J. · Ladies Man Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 7597 City: Mogadishu

Wes,

Urinating on a grave(in public) is against the law, so is public nudity. Someone doing those things would be arrested or at least ticketed with a summons to court. To my knowledge, Miss Smith is not breaking any laws.

Deep in my heart, I feel for someone who may mistake Miss Smith's actions as the equal to urinating on their fathers grave. For these people of who you speak Wes, I will waive my hourly fee and provide them my services for free(though I will still bill insurance until that runs out Wink

)....

E.J.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 1:17 pm Post subject:

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

I am not drawing lines on the freedom of speech. Any individual freedom that we as citizens have only goes as far as to not infringe on the freedom of others. I have a right to express my opinion, you have the right to express yours. No one has the right to yell out that they have a bomb causing injury to others, because you would be infringing on their rights.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 1:25 pm Post subject:

E.J. · Ladies Man Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 7597 City: Mogadishu

The following is a fairly short article that Ralph Wiley of ESPN wrote regarding this topic. It is worth the read.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html

E.J.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 1:27 pm Post subject:

What about invading a chruch service MadDog? As long as no one gets physically hurt is that okay or is it considered infringing on their rights?

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

Well Wes, I believe the scenario you mention would involving private property of a private organization, not a public gathering. As much as a church service is open to the public, I would think they have the right to determine withing reason who can attend the service. To me it seems a little off subject. The subject is not that she interupted a meeting yelling obscenities, or insults. it is that she chose not to face the flag at a sporting event.

I have to say that I enjoy this debate. To me the ability of us to discuss the whole thing rationally is a tribute to very right that she is exercising. And this is probably one of the longest threads I have seen on this site where the debate hasn't turned into a lot of name calling.

DaveBrowning · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 4:38 pm Post subject:

I'm no longer going to post on this topic... it's just going to make me really pissed off at people and just straight up pissed off for that matter. The girl that did that is a freaking liberal jackass. YOU KNOW WHAT MISS SMITH... GO HUG A RAINBOW!!

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

Why are you so angry???

Crissylicous · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 193 City: Wonder Lake

UH! That girl makes me sick, trying to get attention like that. I would have to bitch smack her if I saw her. If you dont like the good 'ol US of A, get your ass out!!! Mad

K.A · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 252 City: Florida

tell us how you really feel crissy! haha. j/k i totally agree w/ you!

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

Turning your back on the flag doesn't necessarily mean you hate your country.

Crissy - What's with the Confederate flag? In a way, I see that as not liking our country or its government. That is, unless you have a different reason.

And according to that great article E.J. posted, "she did not begin doing this for notoriety. It was her quiet, private expression to herself of her own thoughts, her own ideas and moral judgments."

BR_WB · Wakeboarder.com Freak Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2850

At first I thought you were talking about Liquid Force Tony hahaha.
Oh yea, she needs to go to Iraq to see how good she has it.
Later,
Brad

Crissylicous · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 193 City: Wonder Lake

Oh I love our country and fully support it! The flag to me mearly represents rebelness and my love for south, everybody may not agree with me, but oh well! And I never said I have it bad, I know how it is in Iraq, my brother is over there now in the service, and I never complained in the first place so, ya...

DaveBrowning · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 7:36 pm Post subject:

OK... I had to post one more thing to add too crissy's thing. I love the confederate flag... to me, it's heritage, not hate!!

Crissylicous · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 193 City: Wonder Lake

Dave I love you! XOXO!!!! I was honestly going to write that phrase, haha... Do you have that shirt?! Wink

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

We've gone over this but some see the Rebel flag in the same light that they see the Nazi flag. This especially holds true to people from other countries.

On an other note. I understand this girl has the right to protest but I am disgusted by the way she is doing it. I also am very upset with the way the liberal news media is reporting this tension. The story that is being told by the media is not even close to the reasoning that the White House and the President are using. I'm just really disapointed that the truth is not being told because of a biased press and peoples fear of doing what is right.

DaveBrowning · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 12:33 pm Post subject:

WOW!! Everybody loves me!! I've seen the shirt, but I don't own it. I've got a confederate flag on my truck that has that written with it.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Dave I respect your heritage my grandmother is from Arkansas. But Chrissy you aren't in the south so let it go...

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

My Dad's business partner is from Germany. His father served in the Nazi army, but he doesn't have a shirt with a swastika that says it's heritage, not hate. You see the conflict and how it can anger so many???

ohsix · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 2:49 pm Post subject:

Nor*Cal i'm not sure how people see it in the north but in the south the rebel flag is pretty much just a flag. No one really takes offense to it. One of the high schools in my hometown is Robert E. Lee high school and their flag is a confederate flag and their maskot is a rebel. There are many minorities than go to school there and no one is offended by it. Most are actually proud to be a rebel because of their excellent sports teams. Also no one sees it as heritage here either but i dont think TX is considered "the deep south"

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Wes- I understand that perspective, but I enjoy taking the Devils Advocate approach on this topic. That flag holds no meaning in my life and I don't really care. But I am currently studying the civil rights movement and we have talked about this issue. I'm just trying to mix things up and put the other side out there. I just want some people to think about what they hold so true.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 2:57 pm Post subject:

i kinda figured that's what you were doin nor*cal. i like to do that sometimes too. i think everyone in my gov't class hates me because they are all very conservative and i always support the opposite of their views just to open their minds up. also earlier in this thread it is not that important to me what happens to Toni Smith personally i think she was just trying to make a scene.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Wes- I'm sure we could have fun in some Classes. I'm always taking up the opposite side just to see if people can argue what they believe or if they are just supporting some idea mom and dad gave them when they were young. Most of the time they can't support thier ideas so I'll help them out a little.

I question Smith's protest. I highly doubt she has looked into the situation and understands the implications of her actions. I doubt most of the people protesting know the actual facts. The threat of war is also another way to reach an agreement. Its a tactic the USA uses a great deal but this time it is extended and very public.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 3:19 pm Post subject:

It amazes me how many people are ingorant as to why they belive what they do. Even though i dont really believe in legalixing drugs, abortion and many other controversial issues everyone in my gov't class thinks i'm satan because i can make them look stupid while arguing with them over these things.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

What kind of penalty would be enforced in a situation like this?

ohsix · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 6:22 pm Post subject:

i doubt if anything will happen to her jello becaude it's such a big deal. i think making her apologize at a basketball game or sitting out a game or two would be sufficient though.