Utah Riders

jim Bogden · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 178 City: Sandy, UT

yo Jay, send me an email about mead

bryce_04 · Posted: Mar 01, 2003 6:00 pm Post subject:

wow, it's cool to know I'm not the only mormon on here.

wakeboardkid23 · Posted: Mar 02, 2003 6:08 pm Post subject:

all of my friends are mormons and we all ride and usually our boat is loaded with my friends not my sisters

slaydit · Posted: Mar 02, 2003 6:34 pm Post subject:

heh. you guys are funny.

-jey

wakeboardkid23 · Posted: Mar 02, 2003 6:48 pm Post subject:

what is so funny about that. its how things are in utah. as much as it may not seem like we are normal, you would be surpurised at how normal things are in utah

bryce_04 · Posted: Mar 02, 2003 8:03 pm Post subject:

seriously, I hate the stereotypes that are put on us. Some are just plain stupid.

wakeboardkid23 · Posted: Mar 02, 2003 8:07 pm Post subject:

yeah mormons aren't s, its our choice to live how we do, they don't force us, we do listen to music that normal people do, we live like normal people, we aren't psychos just running around preaching repentance and hellfire. we like to do stuff like wakeboard and snowboard and get into that kind of lifestyle

Pyroboy76 · Newbie Joined: 18 Feb 2003 Posts: 40 City: Hellhole, Utah

I ride scofield, milsite, powell, deer creek, huntington, starvation. well just about anylake i can get my boat to i guess, but this year we'll probably end up riding in mudpuddles instead of lakes

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

Yeah, they don't force you to live the way you do. It's just beaten into you your whole life. Why do Mormons have so many kids? Because infants are the easiest to convert.

"Normal" excerpts from the pre-1990 Mormon Endowment ceremony:

"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots"

...

"We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip, or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field"

...

Peter - "What is that?"
Adam - "The first token of the Aaronic Priesthood."
Peter - "Has it a name?"
Adam - "It has."
Peter - "Will you give it to me?"
Adam - "I can not, for it is connected with my new name, but this is the sign"

...

...yeah, that's really normal. So are the secret...er...sacred hand shakes. At least J.Smith didn't make it all up himself...he stole it from the Masons! Of course, he also based much of the Book of Mormon on an obscure fictional book called View of the Hebrews that was published several years before this whole Mormon thing started a few miles from where J.Smith lived.

I'm sorry. You can go ahead and do your thing and that's fine. If you were born into it, you really can't help it. I've just been kind of irked lately about how Mormon missionaries try to get people to think they are normal Christians and all that without telling them how the whole religion is based in confidence schemes, Masonic rituals, black magic, and documented made-up "translations." Most times the missionaries don't even know any of the stuff that makes their whole religion a scientifically disproven hoax and scam. So it's usually not even their fault that they don't give the potential converts all the facts.

The average Mormon is manipulated. The facts are withheld. Pressure is applied by friends, families, and the community. By the time somebody finally gets up the balls to leave the church (and hence their friends, family, community, etc.) they are usually mentally screwed up for life and have to find support groups and sh*t.

The president, elders, bishops, etc. have a great deal going on with their subservient wives, devoted families and followers, money, power, prestige. All that make it really easy to sweep the facts under the rug. The facts of J.Smiths repeatedly documented lies, deception, scams, hoaxes, etc.

Sorry to burst your bubble or whatever but I'm just hoping that more young Mormons will take the time to really research their religion, not by listening to the official rhetoric, but by looking at the scientific and historical records. See, normally by the time you learn the truth, you are too deep in it to get out. It's too late. You'd have to give up too much (and maybe get your "throats cut from ear to ear and your tongues torn out by their roots" ...although the church removed that in 1990 when they thought it might turn people off these days)

The Internet is a great tool. Try it out. Search for stuff like (mormon and masonic), "view of the hebrews", "book of abraham", "kinderhook plates", (mormon and "charles anthon"), (mormon and "seer stone"), (mormon and "money digging")

E.J. · Ladies Man Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 7597 City: Mogadishu

Okay don't tell me you just sat here and typed all that for the good of these poor young kids.... Laughing

I live in Utah....and am not a member of the LDS faith. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated with the local politics, but other than that....I have no complaints. I have found that Mormons are no different than any other religion. They think they are the ones who are right and want money.

I think it is VERY disrespectful to say people who are Mormon are either stupid or brainwashed. I think you need to rethink your theory.

Regardless.... Utah boys of the LDS faith, quit telling others on an internet bulletin board that you are not freaks and Mormons are just like everyone else. You are Mormon, be happy that you have faith in something. That may continue or may not, but defending yourself online to people you do not know will get you nowhere. Yes, you are normal....but what difference does it make if someone in another State or Country thinks so...

E.J.

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

I was not saying that Mormons are stupid. They may be a little bit brainwashed but there is really no shame in that. It is really not a question of intelligence at all. Nor is is a question of morals, integrity, or any other virtue where the average Mormon is involved.

I have known a lot of Mormons. Back in high school, I had a lot of friends who were Mormon. They are usually very nice well-adjusted people. It's no wonder they are so successful at converting people. Hell, if I hadn't happened to do some research on the religion out of curiosity, I might be Mormon myself right now!

See, I don't have any problem with people who are Mormon. I have a problem with the LDS organization and with the high officials who withhold facts from their followers.

It's like if the Pope found out that the Bible were copied from a Tom Clancy novel (not that this is possible!) and didn't tell all the Catholics about it. It's reprehensible. So I would just like to give people a heads-up.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 3:14 pm Post subject:

wwfmd-Are you telling me that all religions out there are scientifically proven? I thought that was the whole point of religion was to believe in things that sometimes we can't prove. Or maybe we aren't that scientifically advanced.
Too bad that your first post makes absolutely no sense at all.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 3:18 pm Post subject:

And your whole search the internet thing makes no sense. Being a mormon my whole life the only one that has really anything to do with our religion is the book of Abraham and that is still a small book. Our main book is the Book of Mormon. I believe you have done absolutely NO correct research. And please explain the rest of them such as "mormon and money digging" That makes absolutely no sense.

jim Bogden · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 178 City: Sandy, UT

i sure wish it was warm enough to ride, these forums are getting really lame Confused

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 3:36 pm Post subject:

And I wouldn't even get me started on priests and all of their sex with children.

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

No religion is scientifically proven. But most are also not scientifically disproven. Many have roots too old for science. Most are not blemished by claims which are so easily disproven by modern means.

Most religions have little or no scientific evidence for many of their elements. Most also have little or no evidence against many of their elements. Mormonism, on the other hand, has PILES of evidence against MANY of its basic elements and roots. These piles of evidence are swept under the rug so that the leaders of the LDS organization can maintain their God-like statuses.

I wrote: "Search for stuff like (mormon and masonic), "view of the hebrews", "book of abraham", "kinderhook plates", (mormon and "charles anthon"), (mormon and "seer stone"), (mormon and "money digging") "

1. Many elements of the Mormon religion have been shown to be directly copied from Masonic rites, symbols, etc. J.Smith introduced these elements after becoming a Mason, himself.

2. The book of abraham was said to have been "translated" from what we now know are common Egyptian funeral scrolls. The real translation is a short paragraph about Egyptian gods, the mummified person, and such.

3. The Kinderhook plates were some brass plates that some farmers scratched some Chinese characters on. J.Smith claimed: "I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth" The farmers admitted the hoax and the scientific study has confirmed it.

4. Once J.Smith scribbled some characters on some paper which he claimed were copied from the golden plates. He "translated" them and claimed to have had them and their translation validated by Charles Anthon, an eminent language professor of the time from New York City. It turned out that Anthon had never had any dealings with J.Smith or the plates and it was a bit of a scandal.

5. Seer stones and money digging have to do with J.Smith's history as a mystic, black-magic practitioner, and con man before his rise to fame as a prophet. One of his bread-and-butter scams, learned from his father, was to use a "seer stone" in his hat to help local farmers try to find "buried treasure," for payment of course. He was indicted for this on several occasions by local authorities.

Anyway, those were just a few items that I thought might be helpful to search for.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 3:55 pm Post subject:

And what the heck are your sources? I sure hope it's not the internet. There are people who don't even believe that there was a civil war and they write about there "discoveries" What does any of this have to do with mormons anyway? Our religion has no black magic. Since you believe it does, please tell me about it because I must be "misinformed" We are not actual members of the church until we are 8 years old and then WE get to decide if we want to join or not. It is religions like Catholicism where the babies are baptised. What religion are you? I bet I can go to a search engine and find out all the hocus pocus about it.

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

I am a sort of skeptical agnostic. I doubt you will find evidence of "hocus pocus" in it.

Yes, most of my sources are on the Internet but as I said: there are piles of evidence. I just don't have the time to visit the libraries to see the rare books, talk to the researchers in person, etc. Many of the sources are from well respected academic institutions. It is not like one crazy dude who refuses to acknowledge the mountains of physical and historical evidence of the Civil War.

I don't believe that Mormonism contains black magic. I am only saying that Joseph Smith was a well-known practitioner of black magic so far as it was used to defraud people. I am also saying that many of the elements of the Mormon religion were "borrowed" from other sources including Masonic rites, contemporary fictional works, the King James Bible, etc. I am also pointing out how many of Joseph Smith's claims were proven to be false, in his time and in modern times. Given that we can prove he was dishonest about some things, how can we trust him about things which we cannot prove or disprove?

Just tell me: Why does the Book of Mormon include so many elements of ancient American culture (animals, tools, agriculture, civilizations, etc.) for which no shred of expected physical evidence exists and why doesn't it contain elements of ancient American culture which are known to have existed but quizzically are not mentioned at all (again: animals, tools, agriculture, civilizations, etc.)?

My theory: Joseph Smith did not translate an ancient historical record with the help of God. He made it up.

Why should I believe anything else?

mobius · Outlaw Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 119 City: Hilliard

wwfmd, you're a coward who would probably believe that george washington was a transvestite and the constitution was written from exerpts of hitlers journal of ideals if you read it on the internet.

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

No way. George Washington was a porn star and Hitler was a transvestite.

Seriously, get real. I am a skeptic among skeptics. The Internet is the most powerful tool for information dissemination ever known to man. It's true that you need a good B.S. detector to pick through the crap. It's may even be worse than the myriad charlatans, flim-flam men, snake oil salesmen, cult leaders, and false prophets of the 1800's. Luckily, people aren't *quite* as ignorant and gullible as they were back then.

As far as being a coward...hmm...maybe. I'm sure not going to give out my address or anything. If the LDS organization would lie to its own members, think of what they might do to a "heretic" such as myself...and they've got...pardon the expression...more money than God.

...it's all about the money...it's always about the money.

wakeboardkid23 · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 7:54 pm Post subject:

well, as far as joseph smith making up the book of mormon, it is entirely impossible for him to write everything that is in there in the amount of time that he wrote. he was interrupted mulitiple times, and even had to start over after martin harris lost the original 116 pages of the book. the man never attended school past a elementary level, he couldn't even write down what he "was making" up as you put it, he needed a scribe. why do people believe that we have been lied to. most of these false accusations have been made by people who became angry with joseph smith and how he was running things. they were repeatidly proved wrong in court. that is why joseph smith was never ever convicted of anything the entire time he was alive. he was lied to be the governor of illinios and was ed in cold by people who did not believe or understand what he was teaching. if this was all a hoax, the church would have fallen apart of his . yet today, it occupies almost every continent and we have temples all over the world.

and how can you call us gold diggers, the money which we donate to our church is used to help the people in our communities and to build meeting houses all over the world. how can you blindly accept things without seeing or hearing the other side of the story. read the book of mormon then you can tell me that it is all a big lie. but be open minded about it. that is all that i ask.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 8:02 pm Post subject:

Excellent point wakeboardkid. What proof do you have that Joseph Smith was a black magic practitioner? btw, he was only a teenager when he went into the grove and prayed about which church to choose from. Yeah, kids back then who really only had time to work on their families farm and not a whole lot else were into black magic. I doubt they even knew anything about it.

derek_pando · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 5 City: Austin, Texas

Howdy,

First of all I would like to give a shout out to all the Utah riders, ya'll probably do not get enough credit as a wakeboarding state, but I have been hearing some good things. I'm from Austin, Texas and am also mormon. I think its tight that there are some mormon wakeboarders out there because there are a ton in Austin. I will probably be joining your state for my higher education. I'm a normal guy out there, I'm a senior in highschool, I wakeboard, play basketball, lift weights and am going to college. In regards to people who do not share the same views with us on religion I just wanted to say a few things. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view and free agency. We live in America. I give mad props out to anyone who stands for something and are actively involved in anything, including wakeboarding and religion. When I was eight I CHOOSE to be baptised. I know what I did is the right decision. I know that my church is the right one for me to be at. Anything anyone says is not going to drag down someones faith if they have prayed about the Book of Mormon and know its true. People can say whatever they want, but that is not going to keep our church from growing. The Book of Mormon IS the word of GOD, and there is a living prophet among us. I would encourage anyone to read it. ALL you Utah guys standin for something keep it up and see ya'll soon. If anybody want to find out about mormons how about asking a mormon of going to the OFFICIAL mormon site www.lds.org or www.mormon.org

Thanks

wakeboardin mormin

hyperlite313 · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 1

Surely you believe there is a god....so pray about it. don't take my word for it or anyone's word for it. Everyone's opinion is biased so find out for yourself. I am also a completely normal mormon who wakeboards, plays basketball, football, and baseball. I found out for myself. Read the book of mormon. don't take anyone's opinion cuz the only way you can know if it's true is to read about it and pray. I'm not gonna start bashing with anyone about my faith. If you feel so threatened by us mormons then i think it's great that you learned so much about us...but don't listen to all the urban legends and anti-mormon stuff. I know that someday you will all know what i know now and that is that this is the Truest church on the face of the earth. and i don't care what anyone says cuz you couldn't rock my faith if you tried. much love and keep it real.

peace kromies

wwfmd · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 6

Why does any religion still exist? If you try to use believers as proof of validity, you will most certainly run into an impossible and obvious problem.

Wakeboardkid: I did not call Mormons gold-diggers. I mentioned the search for "money digging" as that was a term for the practice of scamming farmers into paying one to help them search for buried treasure on their land by various bogus means, e.g. divining rods, seer stones, etc. This was practiced by Joseph Smith as well as his father. Many signed affadavits in the public record attest to the fact that the primary source of income for the Smith family was "money digging" and fortune telling...with stones, divining rods, amulets, special daggers, and all that stuff.

When I said "black magic," I was mainly referring to the fortune telling, etc. I don't know if you have some other meaning for the term. Then again, there is the definite Mason connection, with rites traced back to Pagan rituals and commonly associated with various not-so-holy practices like black magic and even satanism.

I read about half of the Book of Mormon more than 10 years ago. At that time I had a very open mind about the whole thing. I was ready to believe yet I was not convinced that it was anything but a fictional story. I doubt also that God, for some reason, did not see fit to "find his way into my heart" or whatever. I feel closer to God without giving Him a form, a name, or a story, than I think most "religious" people can claim to feel. I know that I have real goodness inside me. Maybe I should call it God?

Maybe I shouldn't be giving you guys such a hard time. If you are happy and you don't make other people unhappy, should we really care about the truth? I'm not so sure.

The only thing is: Imagine learning that your religion, your whole life, is a scam...and really believing it. I've seen this happen to Mormons and their lives have been nearly destroyed. I don't like to see this happen to people and the older you get, the harder it is. I see a pile of evidence that makes it impossible for me to believe in the doctrines of Mormonism. You don't. But you might one day. How will you feel then?

I truly wish you guys the best of luck and hope you are happy in your lives, whatever you choose to believe. I am so disgusted and horrified by the things I see on TV these days. Historical accuracy is the least of our worries. I truly love the human race and all its members. I'm probably one of the few Americans who honestly feels more pity for Osama bin Laden than hatred. I am all for whatever it takes to make people treat each other with love and respect...religion, philosophy, whatever.

Peace.

Pat McCarthy · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 9:40 pm Post subject:

I've moved this thread to non-wakeboarding since it's taken a non-wakeboarding thread. Discussing religions is okay, but please leave personal attacks out of it, or the topic will be deleted. Thanks.

wake152 · Posted: Mar 03, 2003 10:03 pm Post subject:

go catholics go

wakeboardkid23 · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 9:17 am Post subject:

so if it ever decides to become warm here in this great state of utah and it decides to stop snowing, i am getting totally stocked about getting ready to ride again. peace out and remember to rip hard

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 04, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject:

dude-its been warm all winter. We haven't had any major storms at all.

derek_pando · Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 5 City: Austin, Texas

Why don't you cowboys come to Austin, and my crew will take you in the slightly chilly 70's.

moblsv · Outlaw Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 228

hey, utahns. I want to get out this weekend but Willard Bay says the water is low and utah lake is a sh*t hole, I know because I went there two weeks ago and don't want to do it again. Does anybody know just how low willard is or have any info on other thawed lakes?

Jay Dutton · Posted: Mar 20, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject:

Moblsv- There's a crew of us rolling to Mead this weekend. Sun-Wed. It's going to be warm and in the 70's. If you want to hook up w/us you can. We're taking Jim Bogden's Tige 21V.

Try emailing Dave- utahrider@msn.com. He lives up by you and he's already taken his new SAN out at Willard. He's just down the road from Willard and can probably give you an update.

Why don't you want to go out to Willard again? Too cold or low?

Half of the Jordanelle is thawed by dam and the finger, The PWC ramp is on that side. I'm not sure if you can drop a boat in there or not.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Mar 20, 2003 8:45 pm Post subject:

utah lake is either really good or really bad. I haven't seen it anywhere in between. i like going there in the spring though. i hate willard because of all the bugs. they drive me insane Evil or Very Mad