Great Letter about Someone's take on IRAQ!

Shawn Madison · Posted: Feb 26, 2003 11:54 pm Post subject:

Well, here is my take on the whole situation:

I feel that no matter what we do the US will have enemies/groups that are apathetic towards our Country. We are now and have been for over a decade the most powerful country in the world. From this, we are the main policing force in the world. As the most powerful/capable member of the UN, the US is the leading country in enforcing UN regulations/policies. Every UN member should contribute equally, but this is impossible due differences in economies of scale in relation to country size/foreign budget/etc. This being said, we will be the main player in enforcing UN mandates and interests. Also, this will result in an apathetic feeling towards the US from smaller, less-powerful countries/groups. This will always result in terrorist threats and attacks towards the US as being misconstrued as the global bully. Several of the religious based governments and organizations (i.e. Al Queda, PLO, etc.) cannot dissiminate this or do not want to do so for sake of preserving cause. OK-The previous sets the stage!

Sept. 11, 2001
The US is attacked by terrorist. Well this event raises the ire of the US government. Everyone points to intelligence and wonders why this was not detected. Therefore, the US government takes a pro-active approach towards terrorism. It starts by taking care of the people responsible for the attack.

Meanwhile, Saddam Hussein has been routinely firing Anti-aircraft missiles at the UN/Coalition monitoring aircraft. The leash that he has been loosely led by is now being pulled tight. The UN is pressured into giving Iraq a mandate to release a weapons of mass destruction report. Yes, there is basically no way of fulfilling this request 100%. So Iraq, half-heartedly releases documents said to be weapons declarations. At the same time, Saddam is busy playing hide and seek (speak no evil) with his covert weapons capabilities. There are tons of evidence to back this. He had a drone fly in an oval pattern about 500 miles around Iraq that is capable of being a weapons medium. Also, numerous missiles, rocketry implements were found. In addition, communication surveillance revealed an active order of denial giving down through the Iraqi command structure. This alone is proof that Saddam is breaking the UN mandate and needs to be removed from power or relinquish power to keep the UN entity effective.

Ok, Iraq is not the biggest threat to the US at the present. I feel that rogue terrorism is still the biggest threat. It would be very easily for Saddam to finance attacks on the US and it not knowing. He offers PLO suicide bombers $25,000 for attacks. He is not afraid and has shown he would entice Israel into a conflict. There is no way that he can compete in a combat environment with coalition forces. He is fully aware of this. That is why he is employing propaganda techniques and (In my opinion) would love nothing more than hit the US at home with terrorist support. However, Iraq having its hands tied with sanctions and monitoring is not the second biggest threat. That would be North Korea. Their leader has a history of Hitler-like behavior and is exploiting the US's bind with Iraq by pushing the boundaries of Nuclear Fuel production. He knows the US has its hands full with its previous commitment to Iraq and would not want to have two fronts. N. Korea will just be a chess match until Saddam is taken care of. Once this happens-I honestly feel that N. Korea will back down with UN sanction enforcement.

The point of the US's intentions of Iraq involving an Oil agenda are highly unlikely. First, the US has to pay for all of the fuel alotment in this campaign. The Saudis will not give it to us this time and it is projected to be around $60million. Also, it is against the US's/UN's credo to use force as a means of acquiring assets. This has always been the US way! This engagement is likely to cost over $100billion. That would be enough to finance the US oil reserves for decades. If the US wanted the Oil, we would have taken it in the Gulf War. We can only use assets to for reimbursement of enforcement. I know it is hard for me to clarify this-but you can understand it more clearly from the UN's site.

OK-now there is France and Germany! These two countries have huge financial involvement in Iraq and there is a large lobbying industry contingent in both countries against a war on Iraq. This has been revealed and discussed in detail on several political shows/publications/etc. Lobbying could easily influence the way each of these countries' governments are structured. In addition, the media is highly unregulated and is readily available for influence. Also, France and the UK have a friendly rivalry that has been going on for years. Really, this goes all the way down to sports (soccer) they despise each other and so does Germany and UK. This could lead to a biased opinion towards the UK, which would spill over towards the UK back to the US and cause US/UK anti-war sentiment. I know this point is trite and completely opinionated, but could easily be true.

Overall, I feel to thwart terrorism and to protect the US/UN nations. The US/UN has to be pro-active in its policing of the world. This has really stepped up since 911 and will continually be a major factor in the world until many of the smaller/3rd world countries prove they can police their nations of terrorism. I would rather commit lives/finances toward eradicating terrorism, than sitting idly and wondering when it will happen. Well, I am sure I left something out, but that is my .02!

Pat McCarthy · Posted: Feb 27, 2003 12:09 am Post subject:

Nice post Shawn...some great thoughts in there, and well-written.

I agree with most of it, but about the UN and the US role as the enforcer. The problem, is that the US is pushing the enforcement more than the rest fo the UN. You'd hear far less complaining from the anti-war crowd if the UN as a whole was pushing for war. See, we're trying to do policing that isn't being asked of us to do by the UN! That's where the global bully reputation is coming from, not just because we're the most powerful. To most, we look like the bully here, even if Saddam does deserve to disarm. And I believe he does need to disarm, but I'm also afraid of how the rest of the world reacts if we go on our own.

B-rad · Posted: Feb 27, 2003 7:46 am Post subject:

I agree with Turk, good post and there are actual facts in the post. pat makes some good points as well. If you think about it we (the US) are the teenager in the situation. All of the other countries have been around for thousands and thousands of years. In the short time that we have been assembled we have some how manage to get the majority of things right. I wonder if any other countries out there see it that way and do have a concelled hatred/ jealousy towards us in that respect.

SupraBoarder · Posted: Feb 27, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject:

I can't believe I missed this thread for this long. Since it's exactly the same thread as "thoughts about Iraq" I decided to just copy and paste my thoughts and views from that thread onto here.

First off, the United States Public have almost no clue what has been going on in Iraq and lately Afghanistan. A friend of mine's brother is part of military intel somewhere in the middle east. When asked where he was, he couldn't say. When asked when he was coming home, he couldn't say. When asked what he could say, he said this "What you see on the media is not even 1/10th of what is going on over here and the American citizens cannot fathom what is really happening." I don't know if you realize this but 20 years from now, when everything has been declassified, our children are going to be reading a chapter on Saddam, the next hitler. Do you think during WWII the American public had any idea of the atrocious crimes being committed in Germany, Poland and other countries? NO. What I fear more than war is a conflict such as Vietnam. We did not have a set goal when we went in there and the Government was trying to please everyone here by not entering into a full blown war. When Bush senior went into Iraq he could've prevented this second coming from happening but he listened to the people whining about american presence in the middle east and withdrew without sending a wave of ground troops to wipeout everything that our smartbombs couldn't. Saddam knows that we have a policy to attack a military, and avoid civilian casualties at all costs. I feel bad for american marines and ground troops in urban combat because if the accidentally kill a civilian we hang them out to dry. Saddam has positioned many key parts of his military either underground or in buildings surrounded with civilian life, knowing that we see those targets as too risky to bomb. I believe that Saddam is a horrible man that should not be able to walk the face of this earth. He rules much like some of the worst dictators this world has seen and if we really were able to know the truth going on over there, I don't think there would be many people against a war in Iraq. Please trust our leaders that we have elected and know that they are acting in the best interest of us, Americans. I don't want our soldiers to come back to a country that is not grateful for everything they are doing for us. Many of those protestors in Washington and throughout the world are extremely young, impressionable people that I believe do not know the reality of living in a third world country. I honestly wish people would look not at the facts that they want to see, but the facts that exist on both sides of this argument. Bush, Rice, Powell, and Rumsfield have a greater knowledge of the entire situation that you and I will ever have, and I trust that they have made, and will continue to make the right decisions regarding these issues. We have the luxury of sitting back and criticizing our government and I believe it is our duty to criticize when necessary, but imagine living in a place in which if you say that you do not agree with the government, you will be killed. It happens every day.

As for N Korea;
First off, we now have the backing of China, Russia, South Korea, and Britain. China and Russia are N Korea's biggest Allies and they are also calling for a peaceful solution. If they piss anyone off they will be on their own as far as their economy and I dont know if anyone has been keeping up with the state of their country, but the government is having trouble feeding their own people. Don't you think that Bush and his cabinet are aware of something that we arent? They know where the real threats are and they're going after them right now. ie Taliban, Iraq... Just gotta have some faith my brotha.

The best thing about America is the fact that we have the right to hate it.(people in Iraq aren't so fortunate)

Shawn Madison · Posted: Feb 27, 2003 2:59 pm Post subject:

[b]SupraBoarder, That is a great point-what most anti-war people do not realize is that the Iraqi people will be liberated from a Dictatorship/Mass Murder/Oppression from the tirades of its own ruler, etc.

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

SupraBoarder · Posted: Feb 27, 2003 3:57 pm Post subject:

Yeah I really do wish that people would open their eyes and look at the whole picture. I understand what happens during warfare. I'm not naieve to the fact that war, in a single word, is hell. The devistation and loss of life will be minimal compared to the wars of the past, yet in this day and age, people expect there to be no casualties. I'm not one to judge the value of a human life, but I know for sure that I would trade mine so that others could experience even a glimpse of what my life has been like. It's easy to sit in our positions and criticize our leaders knowing that our way of life will go(for the most part) unchanged. I guess they think that as long as our lives are going well, we shouldn't do anything to change that. Unfortunately our way of life WAS threatened... anyone remember 9/11? We put our faith in Bush after those planes hit those buildings and he told us then that this was going to be a new war, unlike those wars that we have witnessed before. This new type of war will not be over quickly and for all I know we could be fighting it long after the day that I die. The reality that we have to face every single day is that this war needs to be fought. Even though we put our faith in Bush then, we criticize him for keeping his promises to us. Why do we do that?

NOBODYwakeboards · Newbie Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 5 City: Michigan

wakeriderof87 · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 7:53 am Post subject:

the problem with the past wars have been that when we went in we didn't go in to kick @$$. In viet-nam we went in to keep the nv out of sv, we didn't go in to shut nv down, we kiilled way more nv than they killed us, but u know what it didn't make a difference

and in the gulf war, we didn't go in saying we are gonna over run iraq at all costs, if you want to take him down, we've got to be willing to kill him at all costs, war is bloody, and we have to face that if we want to take saddam out of the picture

Richie Martin · Posted: Feb 28, 2003 9:19 am Post subject:

o.k. since someone is trying to bust my balls...

First off-without war people wouldn't be able to protest, they would be shot dead in the streets. Then their families and friends would be hunted down and killed as well, just for good measure. Their and our freedom was paid for with blood, and lots of it!! We as a country are spoiled, we have grown soft and lazy. We don't like to hear of violence, much less partake. We are scared that our precious little lifestyle will be upset. WELL LET ME TELL YOU ONE THING, WHEN ONE OF THESE PEOPLE GET A NUKE SET OFF IN N.Y. OR WASHINGTON YOU WILL WISH LIKE HELL THAT WE HAD GONE TO WAR! What you don't know CAN kill you.

Second-What kind of stereotype is that? "...in a lay-z-boy hiding behind the american flag with a budweiser in hand..." Does that mean that anyone who sits in a lazy boy is for war? The people you described are the last ones who want to go to war, bacause then they might have to get off their asses and work.

Thirdly-How are people who support the government letting it think for them?
I KNOW that we the public know absolutely nothing of the severity or real threat that there is. That is why I support the gov. They live here too, why would they do anything that is not in the best interest of the country. And the government knows the facts. We don't. Why doesn't the government release the facts?? Well funny you should ask, because if we the public know, then Saddam will to. And therefore react to it. He will also find out where the leak (spy) is and "plug" it! There are may people in Saddam's organization that are sick of having their people held back and oppressed, I'm sure that they are providing us our information, and waiting for a time to act and get rid of him.

I never said that war was good, I never said that I wanted to go to war, but people naive enough to believe that this issue is not pressing enough to demand it need to open their eyes.

People need to support their country they also need to have faith in it. Unless your government is destroying your country, like Iraq and North Korea. Read some Newsweek and Time. Look back at a picture book of the Holocaust.

And one final thing I don't care what YOU say, everyone has an opinion.

What?? Are you going to tell me to kiss your ass again...pleeeeease. Confused

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

I'm still waiting for Richie start kicking the majority of America's people's asses. Also Richie, Bush doesn't necessarily have to release these 'facts' to the public. Why won't he just show our allies the stuff he isn't telling us? I'm almost positive they'd support a war if he could prove that they actually have weapons or are currently developing weapons that are actually a threat to us.

"The people you described are the last ones who want to go to war, bacause then they might have to get off their asses and work."

War = work? Many of the hardest workers I know don't support war and some of the laziest people I know do support it. That's a pretty ignorant statement, although the statement you were responding to was also ignorant.

"And one final thing I don't care what YOU say, everyone has an opinion."

Why do you seem to get so offensive about stuff then? And what is with your earlier threats?

I also find it funny that you say that we are living spoiled lives, and yet the people who struggle economically, and while they are still living well compared some other third world countries, are going to make up the majority of people who will fight the war that the largely conservative middle class wants.

mobius · Outlaw Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 119 City: Hilliard

all I know is that the Bush and his advisors know a helluva lot more about the situation than ANY of us and i put a lot of faith in that. I don't know what bush needs to PROVE to us, not one of you can prove to me that saddam WONT use a weapon of mass dest. on our soil.

Richie Martin · Posted: Mar 01, 2003 6:47 am Post subject:

Hey, these are all opinions.... Razz

But I will try to give reasons for my words.

According to the latest poles, the majority of American's favor war. So I only have to kick 40% of the population. Very Happy

(Though as anyone who has studied statistics knows, statistics are basically useless and you can sway the results easily.)

But war does equal work, it pulls people (soldier and reserves) out of the work force therefore opening up jobs for people currently collecting unemployment welfare etc. Not to mention that the economy always picks up after a war. That is where I was coming from with that statement, so I don't think it is "pretty ignorant". Maybe a little generalized and vague, but I was responding to someone's personal attack on me.

I guess I am a little touchy about the whole thing but it frustrates me, for a good reason. It is going the same way that the judicial system works. Example: OJ everyone knows he is guilty. Yet he bogusly got off. Probably because jurors were scared of the riots that might erupt, like after the Rodney King trial.
Another Example is the "degradation of society" post that sean obrien put on a while back. Completely insane lawsuits where innocent people are the victims while the criminal takes advantage of the system and gets off.
People are scared to do whats right, even though they know it's right.

Bottom Line
Does anyone here deny that Saddam has WMD?
Does anyone here deny he hates the US and will do anything in his power to harm us?

...now excuse me, I've got to start kickin ass... Mr. Green

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936

"Does anyone here deny that Saddam has WMD?
Does anyone here deny he hates the US and will do anything in his power to harm us?"

How could anyone know if he had WMD's? I do think if our government knew for a fact that he had these, we'd already be in war right now though, so I leaning toward him not having any that are much of a threat to us. I don't deny that he hates us, but I'm not so sure about him doing anything he possibly can to harm the US. I don't know if Saddam really wants to give up his pampered and powerful life that badly. I don't know the guy, obviously, and I do think he could possibly do something evil to us, but I just don't know why he would want to give up what he has just to kill innocent people. An attack against Americans would definately mean the end of his life. These are just my opinions though, as I really don't know enough facts, just like no on this site does.

About the polls, I guess it does matter on what areas are being polled and also what they are being polled about. I think a majority of American's do not support a war with Iraq if we cannot gain UN support. I think the polls said a majority would support it if we can get support though.

I guess I just misunderstood what you meant about working.

MadDog · Soul Rider Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 465 City: Upstate NY

I have to jump in here one more time. What is the sense of having laws if no one is willing to enforce them? Saddam has been breaking international law for years by not allowing inspections, and continuing to produce illegal weapons. There is proof of that. So what purpose does the UN server by creating laws that if people like Saddam chose to ignore there is no consequece.

Do I think Saddam currently has a weapon that he could use agains the US? - probably not. Do I think that he has weapons that he might use against other countries like Isreal or Turkey? - probably. Is he an imediate threat to us, probably not, but how far do we have to let him go before we act? Will it take an attack on Isreal before we care? Will it take something as horrific as 9/11? Laws are laws, and if we aren't willing to enforce them, then we seriously jeopardize our own security by giving people liek Saddam the idea that we will not get involved unless we feel threatened ourselves.

ohsix · Posted: Mar 01, 2003 12:57 pm Post subject:

did anyone see his interview i think it was thursday night? when he was asked about what he thought about the 9/11 attacks?

base · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 208

lets bomb france...

Jello John · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1936