diference inbetween balsa core and normal board?

jordan · Newbie Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 29 City: palmanova

has anyone ridden tha balsa core balance 140 and can compare it to the normal one?? i want to know if its worth the change or if you cant really tell ther diffrence. thanxs!! Wink

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hang loose

noneya · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 796 City: Roxboro, NC

I havent ridden the balance, but I had a Shapiro 138 regular then got a Shapiro balsa 142, the 142 was a lot lighter than the 138, you could definetly tell.

boarditup · Addict Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 731 City: Allendale, MI

You opened a can of worms. Watch this:

Balsa is used because it is stiffer and more structuraly sound than the best composites to date. Wood is lighter, has a tighter grain structure, and resists deformation better. If you go the the various sites for layup stuructures, wood comes out on top for a lot of applications. Increasing strength, reducing flex, and dampening vibration are all the attributes of wood. It is really hard to improve on God's creation.

As to the question whether it will make a difference in your riding, only you can tell.

As to why it was taken out of our boats, that was clever marketing coupled with some lousy constuction/maintenance problems. That should get some people on this board spun up.

Chris · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 188 City: Spokane

boarditup, I'm not sure where you're getting your information but for the most part it's incorrect or incomplete. Let's compare Balsa vs Cirrus cores that O'Brien uses.

First you say wood is lighter, but lighter than what? The core material used in Cirrus-core boards is 5 lb/ft3, balsa is 5 to 6 lb/ft3.

One of the reasons balsa is widely used is because it is light, cheaper than structural foams (Cirrus), and very strong in compression due to the vertical end-grain structure. However, all it takes is a little bit of moisture to get into those vertical tubes & from that point on the balsa will start to rot. Cirrus core is closed cell foam and will never absorb water.

Additionally, Balsa starts to lose it's strength as it gets thinner because the shear strength between the vertical "tubes" goes down exponentially with thickness. Not only that, but the balsa sheets are made of glued-together squares of material (kind of like a cutting board). Each square varies in density so the properties of each sheet vary greatly and there are weak spots where "light" blocks of material get glued in rows or patches. Cirrus core material is uniform & perfect every time.

Cirrus cores also have better fatigue resistance so they won't break down over time like balsa.

Check it out - it's pretty cool...

boarditup · Addict Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 731 City: Allendale, MI

You are correct in your individual facts. However, you have to look at it in context of the entire composite. Cirrus is a great foam and it works well. However, in some applications there still is no replacment for wood. Here are a few questions:

What is the dampening properties of the foam?
How much resin does the foam absorb?
What is the resulting tensile strength?
How resistant is the composite to bending or deformation?

Please don't read me wrong. I am not saying that the foams are not great products. My point is that in some circumstances wood included in the composite makes sense and can give a result that foam cannot. I do not sell wood boards, but think that the choice should be the consumer's based upon their own riding style and preferance.

BTW - Hydrolslide makes some of the lightest boards on the market and they are foam and very durable. It is just not the name ususally associated with state of the art manufacturing of wakeboards.

Choice is GOOD!

Let's ride...

noneya · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 796 City: Roxboro, NC

D'oh , I thought the Cirrus was wood, my bad

Chris · Outlaw Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 188 City: Spokane

boarditup, I agree ~ choice IS good. I'm glad there is a choice of constructions because each one is different and gives riders more choices in the marketplace.

As far as your questions go, while I don't have exact numbers for answers. I can sya that the only resin absorbed by the Cirrus foam core is what fills up the outer layer of cells that are "open" due to machining. This makes for a very strong bond and a light board.

I did a lot of the R&D with LF developing the Ultracore (Balsa) and O'Brien Cirrus (Divinycell foam) so, IMO I can say the following:

Both types of construction seem to have 100% energy return - i.e. normal foam seems to dampen the board while balsa & Cirrus seem to "snap" back better. I think this helps the board generate more pop.

To compare the ride - to me the balsa boards were very smooth-flexing, solid, Cadillac like. The Cirrus foam boards were more hyper, quicker flexing, Ferrari like. Both constructions have a lot to offer from a riding perspective, being so much lighter & more responsive. Last season we were making boards for Darin with heavy PTEX slider bottoms on them that weighed 5.8 lbs. Shocked

boarditup · Addict Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 731 City: Allendale, MI

Keep up the innovation, research and development! The more is put into the sport from the R&D side, the better we will all ride.

Thanks for moving the sport forward.

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject:

How about a core consisting of a thin web of cast titanium metallic foam (43 pounds per cubic foot) and filled in with ultra-low-density polymer foam (<.5 pounds per cubic foot).

Cover the whole thing with a carbon composite skin. Maybe it wouldn't have to be as thick as usual with the titanium web in place.

Oh, wait. Am I going a little overboard here? Very Happy

MissJade · Soul Rider Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 486 City: Austin, TX

In the end, if you can't do a trick, well, you just can't do it. Nothing takes the place of good technique.

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 2:58 pm Post subject:

Oh, come on! You know you want a carbon composite board with a titanium foam matrix core!

FRG · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject:

Well, I bought this $75,000 boat and $1500 worth of equiptment, I plan on being a pro this summer. No trick will hold me back!

BurkeViper · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject:

salmon_tacos, exactly how much would that board cost? I would think it'd be pricy

bluefish86 · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject:

It would be heavy too. If current boards weigh 7-8lbs and are made of 5lbs/cubic foot material, then a board made with 43lb/cubic foot material would weigh well over 50lbs. It would be next to impossible ride – that is if it didn't drown you before you even managed to get up Laughing

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject:

bluefish86,

That's why I said you would have a cast matrix of titanium metallic foam. The whole volume wouldn't be the metallic foam. Regular old aluminum has a much higher density than 43 lb/cubic foot but aluminum honeycomb is light. Metallic foam is even lighter and stronger. Plus, the ability to cast it would allow for a better structure than honeycomb can provide. Of course, I'm not really suggesting that we make wakeboards with this bleeding edge experimental technology. I'm just saying that it would be kind of cool. The strength-to-weight ratio could be mind-blowing.

bluefish86 · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject:

Ooohhh, okay, I understand now. At first I thought you meant to fill the whole core with titanium foam, then fill the cells of the titanium foam with normal polymer foam.

That would actually be very light and strong... but insanely expensive.

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 6:36 pm Post subject:

bluefish86,

Yeah. Any time a material exists mostly in labs, it's bound to be expensive.

It's really amazing what they're doing with metals these days...metallic glass, metallic foam, etc. It makes forging look like it's from the dark ages...oh, wait...it is from the dark ages, huh?

bluefish86 · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject:

Metallic glass, how would that work? Wouldn't you not be able to see through it?

salmon_tacos · Posted: Mar 11, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject:

Metallic glass isn't transparent. "Glass" just means that the material doesn't have a crystalline structure. It's really more of a supercooled liquid than a solid. Most metal is made of crystals with patterns that repeat over and over and determine many of the properties of the metal. The amorphous structure of metallic glass imparts some interesting and useful physical and thermal properties to the material. Do a search on Google and I'm sure you'll turn up some interesting stuff.

CHiLi DaWg · Posted: Mar 12, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject:

salmon_tacos, Dude, I want the first board off the line. Be sure to put some kind of slider base on it. Smile

Inggy · Posted: Mar 12, 2004 4:47 pm Post subject:

salmon_tacos, givin us a science lesson there?? Laughing

darty · Addict Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 522 City: Lexington

Seeing the post in the classifieds about the board press made me think of something...& i didn't want to start a new thread so....What is the actual process of creating a board? I mean, are the materials glued together and then put in the press or what??? I've heard a lot about construction materials and whatnot, but nothing on HOW they are put together...order, etc... & the guy selling the press says that its for a 134 or 140 board. How does this work??? Why wouldn't it be for any range from 134 to 140?