Custom ballast system for supersport nautique ??

wviveen · Addict Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 705 City: Loosdrecht

I have just bought an Nautique supersport from 2001 (v-drive). But it has no ballast system or internal ballast tanks.

I have already did some search on these forums for custom ballast systems but could not really find what i was looking for. I have 150 Kg of lead at home but i prefer not to use this. I was thinking of putting one tube sac in the ski-locker and two larger sacks in the back lockers. But i cant find how much these tube sacs weigh (when full).

And would this be enough ( i am not looking for a knee high "professional" wake ) ?

Does anybody have some pictures of descriptions of their systems..?
And how about pumps and drillig holes in the hull ?

Thanks..!

boarditup · Addict Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 731 City: Allendale, MI

Fly High can make a custom ballast system for your boat. If you have a dealer in the area, contact them. If you don't, PM me and I will hook you up. As for weight, water weighs about 64 lbs per cubic foot. Calcuate the volume of you ski locker and other areas and multiply. Remember that the bag will not fill up the entire volume - somewhere between 70 and 90 percent. Go below the waterline if possible, or as low as possible to avoid stability and handling problems. Use the highest quality fittings and hoses, double clamp everything. Get big pumps, full port valves, and solder and shrink tape every electrical connection. Remember to vent everthing up high, keep vent lines short and vertical as possible, and emptying the ballast is as important as filling it.

Good Luck.

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

I added some bags to my 01 SAN and it's really shaped the wake up nice. I drilled a 1" through-hull for water intake next to the v-drive unit and it feeds two reversible Simers. One Simer fills a custom Let's Go Ride locker bag (http://www.letsgoride.com) and the other fills two side sacks under the bow seats. That setup by itself was too much front-weight bias, so I added two Fat Sacks in the rear lockers and fill those with a "T" off of one of the Simers. Now I'm throwin' a tidal wave with about 1900lbs of water weight!

I've got pictures somewhere of most of the stuff, if you're interested.

wviveen · Addict Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 705 City: Loosdrecht

SuprAir...

Could you please email me the pics.. I am really interested in your system. Do you sometimes fill your system for like 50 % / 75 % ? Could that cause problems ?
Because of the moving around of the water in the sacs ? How much pumps did you use and what kind of pumps ?

w.viveen@zonnet.nl

Boarditup..

I live in the Netherlands, i don`t believe there is a fly high dealer over here ? but i am not sure. How important is the "venting issue".. ?

Thanks already for your info..! very much appreciated !

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

Yeah, I'll get some pix off to you.

Are you referring to only filling the sacks partially? If so, yes, sometimes I don't fill them all the way depending on how many people are with me. Water doesn't move around all that much when they're part-filled, at least not enough to mess up the wake. The pumps I used are made by Simer (2 of them) and they're reversible, so I just fill/drain through the same hoses. There are a number of posts on this board with specifics on those pumps and they are relatively cheap at about $60 US each.

Right now none of my sacks are vented, so it's not critical. I have to keep an eye on them, though, so they don't overfill. Next 'upgrades' I have in mind are to add vents so I don't have to monitor the bags so closely, plus I want to move my current valves and switches to underneath the drivers console so I can do all the filling/emptying from my seat.

Iman · Outlaw Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 116

There is a good article on a thru hull type sytem on Wakeworld.com in the old archives. I think the tube sacs are around 125lbs each but not sure what type you have. The regular fat sacs are around 500 lbs each so you'd probably need more front weight if you used two full rear sacs. I have a similar sytem and it gives me enough wake size but I just use sand and lead up front most of the time. You can fold the sacs onto themselves to keep them fairly solid but only partially fillable. I'm lazy and I didnt wanna worry about leaks so I just got a fast (Rule2000gph) pump and I plug into the cigarette lighter and drop it into the water (so I have to stop to fill but it's only a few mins to fill). I plumbed this into my two rear sacs and then I clamped a seperate 1000gph aerator pump into the other hole on my sac to drain and ran this back out my bilge line (make sure to use some directional valves or you'll pump into your bilge or from the bilge into the sacs). I also power these discharge pumps with another cigarette lighter plug. If I overfill it just runs outta the boat anyways so this system doesnt seem to need any venting. Good luck!

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

SuprAir, post the pics here for all to see

criminally_minded · Posted: Jan 01, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject:

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

OK, here's pretty much what I'm runnin' so far.

None of mine bags are vented yet so I have to keep an eye on them to keep from overfillling. I fill/empty through same hoses & bottom of boat. Phase 2 is to vent them all, plus move the switches out of the locker so I don't have to open the ski locker.

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

A few more pix I missed.

actiondcpd · Posted: Jan 02, 2004 10:59 am Post subject:

SuprAir - Nice setup. I have a 2001 SAN as well and am still filling my locker sack with a pump. It sucks. Why did you put the intake so close to the v-drive? Do you use the stock ballast tanks at all?

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

I didn't take into account the angle of the hull where I drilled the hole so it was just a mistake on my part that I drilled it so close to the v-drive. It really should be another inch or so away from the centerline.

I still use the rear tanks, plus I have a couple full-size fat sacks on top of them. I only fill them maybe half full using the left-side Simer. I contemplated removing the rear tanks and just running with the fat sacks but it seemed like more work than I wanted to fuss with. This way I'm filling quicker since I'm still utilizing the stock pumps and the boat's still original.

actiondcpd · Posted: Jan 02, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject:

Did you ever think of "T"ing off the raw water intake? Can you fill your sacs while you are driving? Does that big locker sac fill from the bottom? I have a fresh water flush kit where you plug the hose in to flush the engine, I'm curious if I can just "T" off of that and run the rest similar to what you've done.

wesgardner · Posted: Jan 02, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject:

Hey SuprAir,

Very clean and very cool set-up - can you tell me where to get the Simers pumps? I looked awhile back and ran into nothing... $60 ± sounds awesome.

Once again, great set-up

Wes

wesgardner · Posted: Jan 02, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject:

Hey actiondcpd

If you "T' your raw water intake, put a check valve in the sac line, you don't ever want that thing to just start sucking air back thru the sac line. If it were me, I'd install a dedicated bronze thru-hull as SuprAir did maybe with a 1/4 turn ball-valve to shut it off (if the other thru-hulls have valves...)

Wes

criminally_minded · Posted: Jan 02, 2004 11:30 pm Post subject:

SuprAir, Would you be able to throw up the model numers of the Simers? Also could you get away with filling 4-5 full sized sacks with two pumps or would the fill time be too long?

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

actiondcpd, yeah, I considered T'ing off the raw water intake but I decided it would be simpler to just drill a separate intake hole. That eliminated my concern about pulling too much water from the engine, although from what I've read that generally isn't a problem.

criminally_minded, the Simer model # is BW85P. They are $60 from BW Atlas (800-305-4393). Not bad for a reversible pump. About the only drawback is they aren't ignition protected like the Jabsco water puppy's, which happen to cost nearly 3 times as much.

Hmm... 4 to 5 full sized sacks? 4 might not be TOO bad, but 5 would definitely be pushing it. Adding the two rear sacks to my setup has slowed me down a good bit and I'd like to add an additional line from one pump so once the center bag is full, BOTH pumps work to fill the rest. Should speed fill time up quite a bit.

boarditup · Addict Joined: 01 Dec 2003 Posts: 731 City: Allendale, MI

If the bags are not properly vented, the bags will not fill completely. The trapped air after discharge will limit the volume the bag can hold. I prefer to have full bags. They slosh around less and the boat handles better. If you want to have trimability, use two smaller bags and fill them individually. Of course, multiple bags are more expensive, but it works better - and it a matter of personal preferance.

If you use the more robust, high capacity pumps rather than the typical bilge pumps, the bags can be distended and split. Venting will prevent that issue and allow for the bag to be completely filled. The bag can also be nearly completely emptied. If you have a dual-use boat, that can eliminate about 200 lbs. Venting will also save on sum buildup in the bags over time since they can dry out or be treated with a chlorine tablet every once in a while. Finally, look at the factory systems - to my knowledge, all are vented (check me out on this).

Doug · Posted: Jan 03, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject:

As far as venting and trapped air. The Simer pump is an impeller type pump. After your first draining of the sacks there will be no trapped air, (as in applications without additional overfill venting). The pump will remove water and air!!! After that, your fat sacks will totally fill, and not slosh around because of trapp Laugh

ed air!

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

criminally_minded · Posted: Jan 04, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject:

Thanks SuprAir, so the Simers are self priming?

Just a thought.... would it be possible to use one way (check) valves on the vents so that the bags would be completly drained such as they are on un-vented bags?

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

Yeah, Simers are self-priming. You won't run into any issues with them pushing/pulling water. Even if the bags were vented, they still should suck them virtually bone-dry before they started sucking air. I really want to vent mine by start of next season, so I'm banking on that being the case.

actiondcpd · Posted: Jan 07, 2004 12:40 pm Post subject:

Is there any problems with the simmers if they suck too much air? Will the impeller burn out?

actiondcpd · Posted: Jan 07, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject:

One more question... does anyone know where the stock ballast intake is for nautiques? Is it possible just to "t" off that?

Xbrdr1 · Outlaw Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 161

SuprAir, yes the bags will empty with self-primers even if they are vented.
...
I think it would take some time running dry for these primers to 'burn up'.

ProXman · Newbie Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 10 City: Binghamton

All this talk about pumps frustrates me because no one tells you the capacity of these pumps. I am assuming they are around the 360gph range at a cost of $60 which will pump ~50lb of water per minute. Now for $146 you could get a pump that has an output of 3800gph (528lb of water per minute) now this isn't reversible but half of us already have a two-pump system anyways.
To me this makes much more sense because it is far more cost effective when you look at the dollars spent per every pound of water pumped.
Also I don't ever here anyone talking about using sprinkler valves. Are they too expensive? Personally when you spend $4000 on a stereo $14 isn't much for a valve. For those of you who don't know what a sprinkler valve does it will allow you to open and close the valve from your dash with a flick of a switch.

Xbrdr1 · Outlaw Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 161

I tried the sprinkler thing....Restricts WAY too much water flow.
As long as you don't mind monkeying with the aerator pump to get it going...no problem. That gets 'old'...real quick.

actiondcpd · Posted: Jan 09, 2004 9:29 am Post subject:

SuprAir - How long woudl you say it takes to fill that locker bag with one of those pumps?

Laptom · Outlaw Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 219 City: Eindhoven

Aren't the Simmer 2000Gph??

Mike D · Criminal Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 74 City: Orlando

my center locker bag fills up in around 10minutes, 600pds fat sack using the simer pump teed off the water intake. When I mean fill, it pushes my jump seat off the floor, so I know when to turn it off. My spring project is to vent this bag so it will vent out of the cooler drain.

I am also going to remove the hard tanks and use 600 pds fat sacks in each locker, upgrade the aerator pumps while I am at it.

Mike
95 ss
2001 san coming soon.

SuprAir · Outlaw Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 180 City: Columbus

Mike D · Criminal Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 74 City: Orlando

my jabsco water ballast puppies are rated at 11 gallons per minute, which I think the simers that I run are just as fast or faster. I switched to simers vs the jabsco ballast puppies since the jabsco shut off at 20 min run time.

ProXman · Newbie Joined: 18 Dec 2003 Posts: 10 City: Binghamton

1 gal = 8.34 lb

High pressure and low pressure has very little to do with time to fill. It is all about how many GPM or GPH the pump could push. Pressure only will affect it if you have a lot of restriction in the line (lots of bends, long run, small tube). I can't remember formulas from my Fluid Mechanics class, but I am sure someone else out there took it.

As for ratings both pumps are rated at 600 GPH (according to there web sites) therefore it should take about 6 min to fill a 500 lb tank.

Mike D · Criminal Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 74 City: Orlando

my jabsco ballast puppies are rated at 11 gallons a minute, but I swear the simers are just as fast.

two cents worth.

criminally_minded · Posted: Jan 13, 2004 9:37 pm Post subject:

I've just ordered two Simer BW8512s. I have already taken out the two rear jump seats on either side of the engine (rearmount sterndrive) in anticipation of a 250kg (550lb) sack in each spot, plus one in the ski locker and 2 x 150kg (330lb) sacks in the bow for an impressive total of 1050kgs (2300lbs) of water ballast plus people!

Can't wait!