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Okie Boarder
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 Posted: Jun 10, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| eeven73 wrote: | | So then advise me, exactly who is lobbying for gun rights in America? |
I'm more in favor of supporting organizations like NAGR.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| microman wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | The NRA is a joke. They've supported many of the laws that go against the 2nd Amendment. |
Honest question, but in the last 25 years or so what laws have they supported that go against the 2nd amendment? |
Not sure why you used the 25 year qualifier, but here is what they supported that is in conflict with the 2nd Amendment, through recent history:
National Firearms Act (1934)
Federal Firearms Act (1938)
Gun Control Act (1968)
They've pretty much continued the support of the same ideas contained in those bills.
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Last edited by Okie Boarder on Jun 10, 2014 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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It's a shame the guy wasn't able to get a better result, but he probably saved some lives.
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E.J.
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: |
It's a shame the guy wasn't able to get a better result, but he probably saved some lives. |
No, sounds like he just cost himself his own....as well as a lot of hurt/heartache for his family.
Where you get that he saved lives is perplexing.....  Sounds like the nutjobs wanted all the civilians out, told them as much. Didn't shoot at one of them, just a single shot in the air to tell them to get out.....
Last edited by E.J. on Jun 10, 2014 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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microman
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: |
Not sure why you used the 25 year qualifier, but here is what they supported that is in conflict with the 2nd Amendment, through recent history:
National Firearms Act (1934)
Federal Firearms Act (1938)
Gun Control Act (1968) |
Well, that's why I said 25 years. I know that at one time it may have been different but it seems now they oppose any and all forms of firearm legislation. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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They oppose the most overbearing legislation that the mainstream also opposes. But, they still agree with legislation that is similar to those three acts.
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Last edited by Okie Boarder on Jun 10, 2014 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| E.J. wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: |
It's a shame the guy wasn't able to get a better result, but he probably saved some lives. |
No, sounds like he just cost himself his own....as well as a lot of hurt/heartache for his family.
Where you get that he saved lives is perplexing..... Sounds like the nutjobs wanted all the civilians out, told them as much. Didn't shoot at one of them, just a single shot in the air to tell them to get out..... |
I doubt they were going to let everyone just exit unharmed, but anything is possible, I guess. In his mind, he felt he was doing the right thing, obviously.
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E.J.
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| Posted: Jun 10, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | E.J. wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: |
It's a shame the guy wasn't able to get a better result, but he probably saved some lives. |
No, sounds like he just cost himself his own....as well as a lot of hurt/heartache for his family.
Where you get that he saved lives is perplexing..... Sounds like the nutjobs wanted all the civilians out, told them as much. Didn't shoot at one of them, just a single shot in the air to tell them to get out..... |
I doubt they were going to let everyone just exit unharmed, but anything is possible, I guess. In his mind, he felt he was doing the right thing, obviously. |
It sounds, by the reports from the people in the store, that is exactly what they were going to do/did. Including a guy that was in the store with the civilian with the CC, who made the decision to go confront the bad guys.
I don't doubt that the civilian who died, was doing what he thought was the right thing to do. He probably did think others in danger, I assume I would have? Hell, if he would have been successful, the gun rights advocates would have made him an American Hero. It's unfortunate that he wasn't successful and terrible that he died.
Again, I pose the question, wonder how this would have played out if he would have just started in a firefight with the nutjobs, everyone hunkered down, and then the police came in....? Assume that is a responding officers nightmare. |
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jun 11, 2014 4:38 am Post subject: |
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In that situation (including location), I think they would have shot whoever shot at them. In Florida or parts of Texas, they would have shot everyone, including any dogs that were around.
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chavez
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| Posted: Jun 11, 2014 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| E.J. wrote: | | It's unfortunate that he wasn't successful and terrible that he died. |
I don't think it's unfortunate he wasn't successful as Police finished the job (by removing the couple's options) without further casualty to civilians or LEOs. These folks had no apparent interest in harming civilians (that weren't pointing guns at them). It is terrible he died.
I think he may in his head thought what he did was right, but he seemingly lacked any tactical training - or if he had some, he forgot it on the spot. Cover and assess. Because he went right to guns up, he forgot to assess the threat and missed the female shooter. His life depended on it (amongst other things), and he paid the price.
This is just another reason why I am not a big fan of weapons permits as they stand today. Dirty Harry you are not. Absent actual real tactical training (and live simulation) you are just another deadly threat to bystanders (and yourself) in the situation.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 11, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Again, I pose the question, wonder how this would have played out if he would have just started in a firefight with the nutjobs, everyone hunkered down, and then the police came in....? Assume that is a responding officers nightmare |
I would imagine the police wouldn't have just come in...they would have assessed the situation to figure out the best way to handle it. Chances are they would have announced a presence and tried to get the focus directed towards them.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 11, 2014 8:29 am Post subject: |
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This whole shooting has some differences to most of the shootings we see, that caught my attention. This isn't a school situation where the shooter is struggling with some sort of socially based issue. This was a couple who was specifically upset at police and wanted to cause harm/death to someone in that specific group, and went out in public to do just that. It's also interesting that the end result was her shooting him, then shooting herself.
I noticed there was some mention of possible meth use, which is a common thread with a lot of these shootings (mind altering drugs, usually prescription).
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eeven73
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| Posted: Jun 12, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Initial reports on the shooter in Oregon are that he was a very well behaved, liked, "normal" kid. There at this point is nothing found/released as to a link between shooter and victim, or any specific motivation.
Only indicator was a fascination with guns. So I guess we could institutionalize a good 50% of teen boys 
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Okie Boarder
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Jun 16, 2014 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I'm afraid these things are just part of living in a free society. Legislation does nothing to deter the criminal element. This isn't the first cycle of gunmen in the US. Repeatedly our society has had to stand against this behavior and prove its not worth it. We will do it again. It will become old news and stop being sensationalized, just like it did in the wild west, the 30's gangsters, the 80's street gangs, etc.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jun 17, 2014 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Isn't there something like 10,000 gun laws on the books?? Those are doing great arent' they?
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, that's basically the paradox of prohibitive law. Bad guys do something illegal, and we create prohibitive laws in an attempt to stop them. But bad guys doing illegal things do not obey laws. So, these laws only affect the people who obey laws, which you never cared to prohibit in the first place.
Take the NFA 1934. Bad guys were basically buying up surplus military machine guns and outgunning law enforcement. So the government passed the NFA. This requires all machine guns, SBRs, suppressors, and explosives, to be taxed and registered. The government was trying to thwart the Capone's and Clyde's of the world. They didn't care if farmer John enjoyed setting up cans on the back 40 and mowing them down with his BAR. They wanted to stop gangsters from mowing down police armed with .38 revolvers. Anyone here think the mob took the time to register and pay tax on all their Tommys and BARs? No, only farmer John did. Did getting machine guns get any harder? No. Remember the 80's and 90's where street gangs were mowing each other down with AK47's and MAC10's? Bad guys dont have problems getting them at all. Only farmer John has to find a legally registered one, pay out the nose for it, have it transeferred, register it, and pay his tax on it. But farmer John isn't who the law was meant to stop!
On a side note, when the NFA went into affect in 1934, the tax was set at $200. This was to make acquiring a restricted item so expensive that the public wouldnt bother. That was a fortune back then. The tax is still $200 dollars today. So, one fill-up of marina gas, lol.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2014 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Selective
Serotonin
Re-uptake
Inhibitors
Combined with a lack of social mental health services
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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^Root cause 
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jun 18, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/
However, correlation is not causation.
But come on....this is worth some serious investigation.
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eeven73
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| Posted: Jun 19, 2014 7:24 am Post subject: |
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There is a consequence for pushing mind altering drugs on kids?  Nooooooo.....
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jun 19, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But come on....this is worth some serious investigation. |
Yep.
But the reaction hasn't been to dig into this aspect; it has been to just add more gun laws and work towards all out bans.
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