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Okie Boarder
Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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City: Edmond
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 Posted: Apr 27, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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LOL, I've lived here 9 of my ~42 years, along with 3 years in South Dakota and the rest in California, so kinda 21/7/72 OK/SD/CA...lol
I'm sure we could have a few laughs and some fun conversation if we sat down and enjoyed a beer together.
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brew
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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City: Jackson
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| Posted: Apr 27, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | Sometimes it only takes one person to stand up to make a major change. |
What do you think this guy is standing up for? |
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chavez
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Joined: 22 Sep 2003
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City: Roseville
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 6:35 am Post subject: |
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It occurred to me the other day that there is a distinct similarity between Bundy and the anti-Google-bus protesters in SF.
They both have established themselves in the locale, and neither wants to pay their landlords. Just sayin.
Bundy needs to pay his tab or GTFO.
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Pretty sure the courts agree. |
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Okie Boarder
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| brew wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | Sometimes it only takes one person to stand up to make a major change. |
What do you think this guy is standing up for? |
The ability for his family to continue making a living and not have an overbearing government agency try to run him off.
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chavez
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Joined: 22 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | brew wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | Sometimes it only takes one person to stand up to make a major change. |
What do you think this guy is standing up for? |
The ability for his family to continue making a living and not have an overbearing government agency try to run him off. |
No problemo. Just pay your rent, dude. Oh wait, you failed to do that for 20 years and now you've accrued seven figures in back rent? Oops.
You need to recognize that Bundy is not a folk hero. He is a deadbeat who has not paid his rent who also happens to harbor some pretty racist beliefs which he himself made public.
He was given due process and he lost. There was a court order behind the BLM's attempt to confiscate the cattle. He is now in violation of that and it does not get any better for him from here.
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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They paid the rent on the agreement that stood for generations. Then the rules were arbitrarily changed by one of the parties. I don't blame them for acting and trying to change that. I would imagine that if your mortgage terms were arbitrarily changed by the Fed, you'd probably fight it in some way.
So, do you think he hates blacks and mexicans?
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jgriffith
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Joined: 21 Mar 2012
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City: Boerne
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder, have you ever heard the term "lease" before? |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yep
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jryoung
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | They paid the rent on the agreement that stood for generations. Then the rules were arbitrarily changed by one of the parties. I don't blame them for acting and trying to change that. |
They were not arbitrarily changed, those lands are managed for all users. In 1989 with the listing of the Desert Tortise the facts and circumstances changed and therefore management practices needed to change.
I don't blame him for wanting to fight to save his livelihood, but look at the court documents of Bundy's case. Mr. Bundy lost in court in 1998. He made up his own arguments based on obscure legal theory. Not only did the Federal agency (under the Executive Branch) prevail, they were issued summary judgment by the Court (under the Judicial Branch).
Summary Judgment means your case was so weak, your arguments were dismissed by the judge.
Bundy lost again in 2012. When his facade was tossed out by the US District Court of Southern Nevada, he had the right to appeal to the 9th District Court of Appeals. He chose not to. If he had not prevailed in the Appellate Court, he could have petitioned the US Supreme Court. But, by taking his toys and going home, he gave up the rights provided him by the Constitution. No one terminated the rights afforded him, other than himself.
On two different occasions, Bundy made a conscious decision to NOT exercise his Constitutional right of appeal. Instead, he defied the ruling of the court.
Bundy took none of the actions we are all allowed under law; appeal. Rather, he continued "squatting" on property he did not own. He refused to follow an order of the courts, for over 20 years. Hard to say he was not granted patience and tolerance beyond what you or I would have been provided.
And when he again lost in court in 2012, he again refused to follow the process that we have for differences we find in application of the law. Rather than take his case to the next level, he continued to ignore the rights millions have died to protect and provide; those rights granted by the US Constitution; his right to appeal and have his case heard at higher levels of courts.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said earlier, what is legal is not always right. Have any of you asked why all the ranchers have left and what drove them away?
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jryoung
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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It's not right to utilize the court system in this country to make your case?
| Quote: | | Have any of you asked why all the ranchers have left and what drove them away? |
Yes, their handout dried up and they needed to seek an alternative or fight the law change in the court system. Any functioning business that is dependent on natural resources understands this risk. If you are getting something for (nearly) free, you should understand the associated risks.
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| Quote: | | You don't meet many old vegans. It's mostly young priviliged kids trying to figure out where they stand in the world. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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They were paying something to use that land. But, with the new declaration of it begin protected, it now allowed the status quo to change. That change brought about fees that were ever increasing. At some point cost/benefit comes into play for a business and when these guys had costs high enough, they cut their losses. The new rules required them to start paying these new fees, and initiating those payments was like signing a contract. Once they started, they were boxed in. Once the fees were high enough, it wasn't feasible to continue, so they left. Bundy never paid the fees so he never initiated that new contract. He still paid the originally agreed fees and all his taxes. So, I wouldn't say he is a freeloader...he just refused to agree to the new terms that seemed unjust to him
This whole thing is about more than the tortoise and the fees. They want these ranchers out of there because they want the land so they can use it to their benefit.
Have you read the report about the solar plant outside Vegas and what they want to do as far as new or expanded area? Have you read about the mitigation plan and the obstacles to that plan?
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brew
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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City: Jackson
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | brew wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | Sometimes it only takes one person to stand up to make a major change. |
What do you think this guy is standing up for? |
The ability for his family to continue making a living and not have an overbearing government agency try to run him off. |
It's a rental agreement. If he doesn't like the terms, he finds a new place to rent or buys his own property. I go up on people's rent annually and make changes to agreements as needed. That is an oversimplification, but if one of my tenants has an issue they can move. |
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chavez
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah JR what do you know about solar issues and federal land access issues??? 
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
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Okie Boarder
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Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| brew wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | brew wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | Sometimes it only takes one person to stand up to make a major change. |
What do you think this guy is standing up for? |
The ability for his family to continue making a living and not have an overbearing government agency try to run him off. |
It's a rental agreement. If he doesn't like the terms, he finds a new place to rent or buys his own property. I go up on people's rent annually and make changes to agreements as needed. That is an oversimplification, but if one of my tenants has an issue they can move. |
Are the annual increases in the existing agreement or a new agreement that you present for them to accept or deny?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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chavez, you never answered my question to you.
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jgriffith
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder, i see that you have read and understand all of the contracts between the Bundys and the US gov througout the past hundred years or so. Can you please give us the cliff notes? |
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Both, each agreement is different. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Already did...read through this thread and you will find them.
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| jgriffith wrote: | | Okie Boarder, i see that you have read and understand all of the contracts between the Bundys and the US gov througout the past hundred years or so. Can you please give us the cliff notes? |
$100 says he asks another question rather than responds or responds that he hasn't read all the way through it but offers a reference to some nutjob website that backs up his stance. |
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | Already did...read through this thread and you will find them. |
Wait, let me check again since I must have missed them.
Nope, still not seeing it. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| brew wrote: | | Both, each agreement is different. |
But, you don't just change the terms and send them a bill, right?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Your reading comprehension isn't very good, then.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and about that $100.
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jryoung
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Joined: 19 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Apr 28, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | They were paying something to use that land. But, with the new declaration of it begin protected, it now allowed the status quo to change. That change brought about fees that were ever increasing. At some point cost/benefit comes into play for a business and when these guys had costs high enough, they cut their losses. The new rules required them to start paying these new fees, and initiating those payments was like signing a contract. Once they started, they were boxed in. Once the fees were high enough, it wasn't feasible to continue, so they left. Bundy never paid the fees so he never initiated that new contract. He still paid the originally agreed fees and all his taxes. So, I wouldn't say he is a freeloader...he just refused to agree to the new terms that seemed unjust to him
This whole thing is about more than the tortoise and the fees. They want these ranchers out of there because they want the land so they can use it to their benefit.
Have you read the report about the solar plant outside Vegas and what they want to do as far as new or expanded area? Have you read about the mitigation plan and the obstacles to that plan? |
Okie, you are very much misinformed. Fees? Here are the Federal Livestock Grazing fees, take note that in 1993 when Bundy stopped paying his fees....yes he did stop paying them, they actually decreased.
1981.....................$2.31
1982.....................$1.86
1983.....................$1.40
1984.....................$1.37
1985.....................$1.35
1986.....................$1.35
1987.....................$1.35
1988.....................$1.54
1989.....................$1.86
1990.....................$1.81
1991.....................$1.97
1992.....................$1.92
1993.....................$1.86
1994.....................$1.98
1995.....................$1.61
1996.....................$1.35
1997.....................$1.35
1998.....................$1.35
1999.....................$1.35
2000.....................$1.35
2001.....................$1.35
2002.....................$1.43
2003.....................$1.35
2004.....................$1.43
2005.....................$1.79
2006.....................$1.56
2007.....................$1.35
2008.....................$1.35
2009.....................$1.35
2010.....................$1.35
2011....................$1.35
2012....................$1.35
As for the solar reference that is even more laughable because these issue predate utility scale by over two decades. Further, those land use policies that Bundy protested were put in place by an EPA, BLM and DOI that Reagan and Bush I put in place. The judges that handed Bundy his ass? Same two Presidents.
Even if the tin hat solar conspiracy was true....really trying hard here to pretend the maps align, who do you think would THE biggest protester? Hint, they like tortoises and hug trees.
But, even if that isn't enough, the topography of the land is terrible for solar. Utility scale solar needs near flat or consistently sloping land. The land Bundy once had permit too is a big pile of dogchit for utility scale solar.
Here's a link to the Dry Lake solar proposed land....Mr. Bundy's former permit was for land to the east....just off the map.
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/las_vegas_field_office/energy/dry_lake_sez.Par.11774.File.dat/Dry%20Lake%20Map.pdf
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 2:42 am Post subject: |
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From what I read, those are the fees he continued to pay. But, in addition to those fees, new fees were imposed in 1993, and that's what he refused to pay. That's also, what I understand, has increased to the point other ranchers have left.
The solar plant I'm talking about wasn't being proposed on the land Bundy is on. The report I read through was indicating it was closer to Vegas. IIRC it was right near a plant that already exists. In that report was a mitigation plan for the tortoise, since that land also has tortoise issues. The mitigation plan was to relocate the tortoise to the land Bundy is on. One of the stated problems in the report was that cattle was on the land and posed a threat to the relocated tortoise. It seems the conclusion was that the relocation plan wouldn't work because of that.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Another interesting response to the "racist rant".
| Quote: | "The media distorts information to the point of social division. This is a photo of myself and the resilient, often charismatic, and maybe not so tactful Cliven Bundy. He's a cowboy and a helluva family man, not an orator. One thing he definitely isn't - a racist. I found his comments to not only be NOT racist, but his own view of his experiences. Who the heck are we to determine another man's perspective on the world around him?! Just because Picasso's view of the world was abstract, does it negate the fact that his art was genuine? Furthermore, if you take the time to do your own research, you'll find that his statements about some black Americans actually hold weight. He posed a hypothetical question. He said, "I wonder IF" ... Hell, I'm black and I often wonder about the same about the decline of the black family. Bottom line is that we are all slaves in this waning republic, no matter our skin color. Mr. Bundy could have used any racial demographic as an example: Native Americans on reservations, whites in trailer parks, etc. He noticed the crippling effects of receiving government "assistance" and the long term result of accepting handouts. It's not progress at all. I challenge Sean Hannity, Rand Paul, and others to read my comment and reconsider their position in this matter. Individual liberties are at stake here, yours and mine. THAT is the issue. Don't let the liberal media and ignoramuses like Glenn Beck and that weasel Harry Reid make you lose sight of the real issue here: The federal government is a burgeoning behemoth and a bully on a once constitutional playground.
I sincerely hope you real patriots out there can see through the smoke.
Semper Fidelis"
Charlie Delta |
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | Your reading comprehension isn't very good, then. |
My reading comprehension is above average. I don't see anything that shows you understand the matter other than from the anti-federal government view rather than the viewpoint that follows the law.
His whole argument is based on states rights and this being state land and not federal land. He has even said he would pay the state. That has been heard in multiple jurisdictions and appellate courts and it has always been ruled in favor of the Feds. When Nevada was formed the Feds owned the land and still do.
He is grazing cattle on public land without permit. Did his deal change in '93? Sure, but that happens frequently when you are a tenant and not an owner.
JR, the information out there is all over the board on whether he paid the fees prior to 93 or didn't pay the fees. Several reputable sources have reported it both ways. The Washington Post timeline says he didn't pay a fee up until '93 when the tortoise issue came up and the BLM put land use restrictions in place. Whether he paid or didn't pay, the issue is still the same. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: |
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All I was claiming was that the cliffs notes about what the agreements were are already part of this thread.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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All I was claiming was that the cliffs notes about what the agreements were are already part of this thread.
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brew
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I've read through every post you have made and I don't see anything anywhere that shows you understand or care about the issue behind the debate. You are trying to defend someone who has no leg to stand on just because it's against the Feds.
The whole first page and a half you argue that it's his land which it's not nor has it ever been. Then you move to states rights and private ownership. States rights clearly aren't in play here as the state was formed after the Fed's owned the land and the Feds maintaining ownership was part of the original arrangement . Private ownership is always a good thing, but we all have an interest in maintaining government owned property for everyone's use. Again, it's not in play here anywhere. We can debate the Fed/State piece, but today this is clearly Federal land. Then you move in to a bunch of other stuff with no bearing here.
If I missed something, let me know. I get that you are anti-government and probably back the militia mentality in this situation, but most of the guys there are anti government and didn't want to miss a chance to flex their muscle. They could give a $hit about Bundy, they are just there to join a fight. It doesn't matter that here they are clearly on the wrong side. |
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chavez
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Joined: 22 Sep 2003
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City: Roseville
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Let me respond to your question with an equally absurd one:
Do you think that 7-11 should add the Diet Mountain Dew slurpee as a permanent flavor in the slurpee machine?
FYI: just because one works with people of other ethnicities does not mean they see those people as equals.
I don't think you have a singular clue here Okie. Bundy was able to exercise his fundamental rights. He lost, multiple times. He's been given an inordinate amount of leeway, something I find concerning. He is not only in violation of the law, but specific court orders, and now he can add a litany of other charges due to his interference with the Feds.
IMO the Feds should execute the terms of the court order and arrest Bundy for his obstruction. If Bundy fights back use appropriate levels of force to put it down. If that means rolling up there in a convoy of surplus MRAPs and countless LEOs, so be it. If Bundy and his "militia" are stupid enough to engage them, they can deal with the repercussions.
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| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I take your answer to mean he may not hate them, but sees himself as superior? Is that the jist Chavez?
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brew
Wakeboarder.com Freak
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| Posted: Apr 29, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | | IMO the Feds should execute the terms of the court order and arrest Bundy for his obstruction. If Bundy fights back use appropriate levels of force to put it down. If that means rolling up there in a convoy of surplus MRAPs and countless LEOs, so be it. If Bundy and his "militia" are stupid enough to engage them, they can deal with the repercussions. |
Agree. You've got a bunch of militia that showed up just to fight the government. They don't care about the cause, just the fight. If this is allowed to go on, what's the next cause? I don't want to pay taxes any more, who's with me.
Okie, before anyone else answers one of your constant questions, I would like you to make a point and explain why you think Bundy is in the right here. I assume you agree with the land ownership issue now, so what's next. |
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