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eeven73
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 Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:48 pm Post subject: Friend of Big Business |
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http://www.reuters.com/article/comments/idUSBRE96T0F820130730
| Quote: | | Obama wants to cut the corporate tax rate of 35 percent to 28 percent and give manufacturers a preferred rate of 25 percent. |
Right after a nice 5% raise in rates to S-corps
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Bowen
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| Posted: Jul 31, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Same stuff, different day/president.
Which side of the coin will we elect next? It doesn't matter, they're both the same. |
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GnarShredd
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| Posted: Jul 31, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Bowen wrote: |
Which side of the coin will we elect next? It doesn't matter, they're both the same. |
amen |
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jul 31, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Ron Paul wasn't... I know, broken record.
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eeven73
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| Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Bowen wrote: | Same stuff, different day/president.
Which side of the coin will we elect next? It doesn't matter, they're both the same. |
stuff apathy.
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Bowen
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| Posted: Jul 31, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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goofyboy, I voted for him...twice. Unfortunately Rand fell pretty far from the tree.
eeven73, I'm actually not that apathetic, I try to wake everyone up to the fact that Republicans and Democrats are the same, but I also know that an internet forum isn't exactly a convincing venue. |
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Tbonez
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| eeven73 wrote: | | Bowen wrote: | Same stuff, different day/president.
Which side of the coin will we elect next? It doesn't matter, they're both the same. |
stuff apathy. |
The truth and apathy don't necessarily go hand in hand...I feel the same as Bowen but I can assure you apathy does not quantify my state of mind on the issue.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Bowen - i don't think Rand fell that far from the tree. I'll support Rand. He has the ability to play nice with the others (Big government republicans and dems) in order to get what he wants in the end. His dad would not compromise at all and I think that was his downfall. I'll take two wins and one loss (depending on the loss) to get back to a smaller government that gets the hell out of my life.
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 4:53 am Post subject: |
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The reason it doesnt matter is not because all presidents are the same, its because our society is polarized. The formula for getting into office is simple, do what the majority wants. Traditionally, this was easy as the majority of the country was conservative at its core, and both parties played on that. Now we just stay in gridlock. There is enough voice that any effort can be foiled from the other side.
With society so equally split, the election of one president or another will not affect change of any sort. The measure of a president's effectiveness is in his ability to manage a majority congress. Without a majority in society and thus a majority representation, he is simply a bus driver.
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STPHNSN23
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| goofyboy wrote: | | I'll take two wins and one loss (depending on the loss) to get back to a smaller government that gets the hell out of my life. |
not going to happen. it will get bigger 'til it collapses. |
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GnarShredd
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| goofyboy, Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately I may as well have just wrote his name on a piece of paper and tossed it out the window to have an equal effect. |
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Bowen
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| jason_ssr wrote: | The reason it doesnt matter is not because all presidents are the same, its because our society is polarized. The formula for getting into office is simple, do what the majority wants. Traditionally, this was easy as the majority of the country was conservative at its core, and both parties played on that. Now we just stay in gridlock. There is enough voice that any effort can be foiled from the other side.
With society so equally split, the election of one president or another will not affect change of any sort. The measure of a president's effectiveness is in his ability to manage a majority congress. Without a majority in society and thus a majority representation, he is simply a bus driver. |
Disagree - every President in recent history has either increased the deficit, increased the size of government, or both. With the exception of appeasing a vocal minority over small social issues (that draw the public's attention away from the real issues), hence they've all been the same.
It's no longer the majority that makes the noise. It's the vocal minority being given a platform by the media that wants ratings so they can sell commercials to big business. We stay in gridlock because grandstanding politicians appeal to a vocal minority which gets them air time and financial contributions (most recently Wendy Davis and Rand Paul)...and the cycle continues. Our politicians are rewarded for gridlock in the form of fundraising.
If you really look at what we are divided over it is the "issues" that don't matter at the end of the day. It's the "issues" that do nothing to make our country better or worse. What are those issues? (and I'm not taking sides one way or the other) - Abortion, Gay Marriage, Affirmative Action, The War on Drugs, Religion, and the list goes on.
America isn't divided on balancing the budget or staying out of wars we don't belong in. America is not divided on term limits or fixing the economy. The politicians are because big business rewards them for it. America isn't divided over the fact that NSA collecting ALL of our data is wrong, but the bill to repeal funding doesn't pass because the big businesses involved in making the tools that handle the surveillance OWN congress. THIS is the stuff that matters. Everything else that "divides" America is a BS sideshow created to shift "America's" focus to the stuff that doesn't matter.
/soapbox |
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Nor*Cal
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Bowen wrote: | | America isn't divided on balancing the budget or staying out of wars we don't belong in. America is not divided on term limits or fixing the economy. |
Um but we are...
I will argue against term limits any day of the week. Conservatives who argue for term limits have clearly not looked at the $#it-show they created in California. Most political scientists disagree with term limits. They weaken a co-equal branch of government and result in unnecessary, poorly written legislation that gets passed in greater quantities.
America also in general lacks the understanding of political economy and what it takes to fix the budget. Once the balanced budget impacts a program they receive or shifts a budgetary burden to the local level the public balks and that's where the gridlock is, not at the top but at the local level with the constituents.
Anyone who believes we are not equally responsible for how these elected officials act is naive. They take their cues from their constituents and we are sending them the wrong signals.
Remember our government was designed to create friction and slow change. It is the role of checks and balances to prevent radical movements in government. Gridlock is to an end, good.
And I for one, support the reduction in corporate taxes. It helps job creation and will aid recovery of the US economy. I hope this opinion trickles down and we get some income tax relief.
Business, even big business, is not evil, it's a rational actor in our economy. Why would anyone demonize something as predictable as business?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Which side of the coin will we elect next? It doesn't matter, they're both the same. |
Yup.
I agree that Rand is a pretty good "alternate" choice. I like Ron much better and I'm not sure the compromises and playing nice Rand does is going to be positive, long-term. I think he is going to end up being influenced instead of the other way around, but he seems like the best shot for someone that truly wants to preserve individual liberty.
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eeven73
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Nor*Cal wrote: | | Bowen wrote: | | America isn't divided on balancing the budget or staying out of wars we don't belong in. America is not divided on term limits or fixing the economy. |
Um but we are...
I will argue against term limits any day of the week. Conservatives who argue for term limits have clearly not looked at the $#it-show they created in California. Most political scientists disagree with term limits. They weaken a co-equal branch of government and result in unnecessary, poorly written legislation that gets passed in greater quantities.
America also in general lacks the understanding of political economy and what it takes to fix the budget. Once the balanced budget impacts a program they receive or shifts a budgetary burden to the local level the public balks and that's where the gridlock is, not at the top but at the local level with the constituents.
Anyone who believes we are not equally responsible for how these elected officials act is naive. They take their cues from their constituents and we are sending them the wrong signals.
Remember our government was designed to create friction and slow change. It is the role of checks and balances to prevent radical movements in government. Gridlock is to an end, good.
And I for one, support the reduction in corporate taxes. It helps job creation and will aid recovery of the US economy. I hope this opinion trickles down and we get some income tax relief.
Business, even big business, is not evil, it's a rational actor in our economy. Why would anyone demonize something as predictable as business? |
All of this.
My point in starting the thread is that no one is talking about the fact that Obama's "Grand Bargin" proposed recently has a reduction in corporate tax rates. Which is great and all, but leaves out the fact that most small businesses(the job creators, right?) are taxed at the personal level only, because of the S-corp structure. Which, oh by the way, just went up 5%.
It strikes me that this can only be a political calculation that the populous is to dumb to understand this fact.
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Nor*Cal
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Let's not forget all the big businesses that donated to Ron and Rand. They have to play the game also, and just because you take a campaign contribution doesn't make you dirty or bought. Let's drop those silly notions.
"If you can't eat their food, drink their booze, F! their women and then vote against them, you have no business being up here." - Jesse "Big Daddy" Unruh
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Nor*Cal
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 9:57 am Post subject: |
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eeven73, exactly if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander, the concession of tax relief to one sector of society should be extended to others as the arguments are similar for both.
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Bowen
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Nor*Cal wrote: |
I will argue against term limits any day of the week. Conservatives who argue for term limits have clearly not looked at the $#it-show they created in California. Most political scientists disagree with term limits. They weaken a co-equal branch of government and result in unnecessary, poorly written legislation that gets passed in greater quantities. |
Not saying your wrong a but I don't think I've seen any divisive polls on how America feels about term limits.
| Nor*Cal wrote: |
America also in general lacks the understanding of political economy and what it takes to fix the budget. Once the balanced budget impacts a program they receive or shifts a budgetary burden to the local level the public balks and that's where the gridlock is, not at the top but at the local level with the constituents. |
Agreed - but the areas that get cut are the "sideshow" areas that I was referring to or areas that should be funded at the local level anyway. The goose/gander point made is correct, but no one is willing to drop the stuff that really doesn't matter on a macro scale.
| Nor*Cal wrote: |
Anyone who believes we are not equally responsible for how these elected officials act is naive. They take their cues from their constituents and we are sending them the wrong signals. |
Agreed-however fundraising doesn't only come from their constituents. Which is one of the ways out of state special interests groups meddle in local politics.
| Nor*Cal wrote: |
Remember our government was designed to create friction and slow change. It is the role of checks and balances to prevent radical movements in government. Gridlock is to an end, good.
And I for one, support the reduction in corporate taxes. It helps job creation and will aid recovery of the US economy. I hope this opinion trickles down and we get some income tax relief.
Business, even big business, is not evil, it's a rational actor in our economy. Why would anyone demonize something as predictable as business? |
Agreed - I have nothing against big business; but I am against big business (essentially) owning politicians and the media. I understand economics and I'm fine with incentives and tax breaks. I don't like businesses running our country or the way that politicians "retire" into $$$$ jobs as lobbyists for big business.
I have an admitted love/hate with big business. |
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Nor*Cal
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Bowen wrote: | Agreed - I have nothing against big business; but I am against big business (essentially) owning politicians and the media. I understand economics and I'm fine with incentives and tax breaks. I don't like businesses running our country or the way that politicians "retire" into $$$$ jobs as lobbyists for big business.
I have an admitted love/hate with big business. |
Everyone has a lobbyist and some of the most powerful lobbies are not businesses, think AARP, ect...
And politicians crossing over into lobbying only really happens in places where there are term limits. 
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Bowen
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| Posted: Aug 01, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Nor*Cal, touche |
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