Giving vs Taxing

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

I saw the statement Obama made at the prayer breakfast about giving, referencing scripture. Referencing scriptures seems a little funny to me, especially what he referenced and the parts he left out. But, as I thought about it more it got me thinking about how we should help those in need. So, from an idealist point of view, would you prefer to give or be taxed? If everybody just gave from the heart, like the referenced scripture, would we even need to tax?

Curious on your thoughts.

I prefer to give on my own and not have it done through taxes. I also think that pure giving would be more effective than taxing.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Yep, ifs and buts.

So, what do you think is worse...

An individual citizen being stingy with their money and not being charitable.

A government forcing its citizens to provide for others in need.

Also, when you give a dollar to an entity to help those less fortunate, how much of that dollar should go to that less fortunate person?

I think most of us on here are in a position to give and help others. Like you've pointed out before CB, even the poor in the USA are in much better shape than most of the world.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

An individual citizen being stingy.

Everyone who lives here benefits from the structure of our civilization and society.

I don't think it's bad at all for a government to force its citizens to provide for others in need. Because the people who have the money are also benefiting, the entire society is stronger.

Of course, there will always be abuse and we should try to ferret that out. But just as a society can collapse when there is too much welfare, No society can exist for long when their bottom tier is destitute.

I'm in a position to give right now... to my kid's day care providers, their insurance providers, their college funds, the roof over their heads and the food that gets put on their plates. Oh, also diapers and clothes that they outgrow in less than 2 months. So right now, my priority is taking care of my kids. I also have a very tenuous job situation, so I have to save as much as I can for my inevitable layoff and ongoing job search.

I gave when I could, and when I can again, I will. Things are not the best for me right now, but like you say, I'm better off than the overwhelming majority of of people walking the earth today.

goofyboy · Posted: Feb 04, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject:

We give every year to local charities. Project Joy and Hope, Star of Hope Mission and Goodwill. I can see the people these places help. I know the woman that started Project Joy. I met a little girl that we helped to get a lung transplant. I like having the ability to talk to the people running two of these organizations and ask them how my money is being used.

The amount of government waste is astounding. I would give more if the government let me keep more. There are plenty of charitable people in this world. I don't need some door knob in Washington telling me who I Have To Help. Pisses me off.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

I think some taxation is fair and equitable. I don't mind paying for roads, schools, public safety (military, fire, ambulance, police), or even an insurance pool to help people who are unemployed for a limited period of time. I wouldn't mind paying for nationalized healthcare if it was like the japanese system.

And I don't mind fees that support parks, utility infrastructure and so on.

I do mind being taxed in excess for programs that are bloated and have grown beyond their use.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

I think the government forcing us to give is worse. I think it breeds an environment of complacency and bitterness.

goofyboy, it does feel good to give and help others and actually get to see the positive outcome on their lives. To me, that is what giving is really all about. Being forced to give takes that away, IMO. Not seeing the positive outcome and a direct result of giving can take a lot of the positive feelings away from the giver.

Nor*Cal, I agree. Paying for infrastructure has its benefits, for sure. I do think that on that front there are better ways to do it, which I've talked about many times before. I think the paying for programs that are bloated, as you noted, is one of the reasons I don't like the government handling that aspect of things in society.

Here's a question for everyone...

If you were able to keep half of what you currently pay each year for taxes, what would you do with it? Would you use it to help someone else (either directly or through some sort of charity organization)?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

goofyboy · Posted: Feb 05, 2012 9:25 am Post subject:

Yes, I only give because it feels good. I picked the charities because I like what they do. If makes me happy to share my good fortune. I do not give out of obligation. I would not give if it did not make me happy about what I was doing.

If I got to keep half of the taxes I pay, the charities I give to wold get more money. I would keep my percentages the same of savings, college fund for the kid, retirement and charity.

Baltfrog · Addict Joined: 24 Jan 2012 Posts: 555 City: Baltimore

Giving is far better than taxing, but puts maybe too much faith in humanity. My issue is that some less fortunate people feel that its the governments responsibility to take care of them. Our government has created these monsters. By no means is everyone like this, but I work as a retirement specialist and you would be amazed how little most people save for retirement and then when they retire too early at 60 with 30,000 in their 401(k) they cash it all out. People retiring now are going to need an estimated million dollars to live a comfortable life and not be a burden on their family. People my age (25) are going to need an estimated 3 million at the time of retirement factoring in inflation. That is just depressing.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

If people kept more of their money, would the overall market adjust and would that make things cost more, as people could afford to pay more?

Nooga678 · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 5:41 am Post subject:

People being stingy is not a negative thing. If people have more money they spend more money. If they don't spend it, they either save it or invest it. Savings is where capital comes from. The government doesn't create capital it comes from savings. If the government is taking your money for something it is inherently a failing enterprise. Otherwise some person or company would be doing it for half the cost with twice the profit putting the government out of business.

cameraboy, People having more money does not make prices go up. If you ran a business and people had more money and you raised your prices, it would only open the door for someone to offer your goods or services at a lower price. Competition keeps prices down. Prices go up when the fed or government gets involved and screws with the system (see every bubble since 1913). The government thinks everyone should go to college so rather than working to lower the price of college they just give everyone easy money. Naturally the price of tuition has been increasing dramatically.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

How is it good for the economy if people are saving money instead of spending it?

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

ScottyB_RochNY · Addict Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 971 City: Rochester

I don't like the idea of goverment forcing people give via taxes (although yes I believe that taxes are neceasry and we should all contribute to the infrastrcuture of our country and the costs involved with protecting our rights). I also think it's wrong for people to tell others or judge using the basis of "he can afford to". Your money, time and work is your property and you should decide what you do with it.

goofyboy · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 6:42 am Post subject:

Nooga678 · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 7:08 am Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Wakebrad · Ladies Man Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 12257 City: Dallas

BrianABE · Outlaw Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 210

I personal give every year, because I honestly want to. Could I do more? Sure, everyone could.
I just don't give to the government, and I try my best to use multiple tax shelters to prevent every being taxed more then 14%.

Unlike some of the post above, I care nothing about letting the government use my money to help those ‘who think they need it’ or help with insurance when they abuse drugs. Yes, some don't, but some do and there is no control involved. There are more bads that out weight the goods.
Road, infrastructure, sure… To make someone else a wealthy person? No, and if you don’t think it is already happening, you are sadly mistaken.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I don't think a lot of people are becoming wealthy off of government assistance.

microman · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject:

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

eeven73 · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject:

STPHNSN23 · Guest

microman · Posted: Feb 06, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject:

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I think that they also were often taken from their families or given away to institutions to be taken care of.

I don't know how accurate it is, but you hear stories about families having to give a kid away during the great depression. I hope that never happens again.

You also hear about debtor's prison and work houses.

As for people who simply were not capable of functioning in society, like the mentally handicapped or people with physical deformities or problems, I don't know what happened to them. I suspect that for some of them, their fate was not very nice.

I don't mind being taxed even if it just means that I can say that I live in a society that takes care of those who can't take care of themselves. I don't think anyone on this board would say different.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Just from personal experience I grew up with quite a few friends / acquaintances that were on welfare. Some were the families of the kids I was friends with and a couple were teenage pregnancy situations. The families were lifers and to this day I'm not sure whether they really take care of themselves or not. I know they were on welfare from the time I was 8 to 18 and kind of lost touch after that with most of them. There were 5-6 families I knew fairly well (neighborhood friends) and a few others I knew just from school. For the 5-6 I knew well, 3-4 of them were not only on welfare, but they were working side jobs under the table and taking advantage of every loophole possible. The others just took the welfare and food stamps and the parents seemed very lazy.

This isn't statistical or even a large sample set, but I will say it had a strong influence on my thoughts of the matter. Even back then I realized people are much better having an opportunity to better themselves than to receive a hand out. I support any programs that head in that direction.

I would rather see something where people can do something in return for what they get. If someone is on unemployment or welfare and can't find work, why don't we have programs that let them do jobs for "credits" that can help reduce local or regional budgets to offset the cost? Why don't we have all kinds of programs that teach them a marketable skill so they can quickly get back to work?

To me, if there are programs in place that help the people get back to being self-sustaining in a quick amount of time and prevent abuse, that is positive and effecient. I've yet to see programs to that level and that is one reason I struggle to feel comfortable with them being the right solution.

IMO, from what I've seen done over the last 40 years, we would be better off taking care of our friends and neighbors at the local level, when they need it.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Where did you grow up that you knew 5 or 6 families that were on welfare?

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I don't know, I never even met anyone who was on welfare. NO, I'm sure I did when I was a photojournalist, but I never knew anyone on a personal level who was on it.