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Neognosis
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 Posted: Sep 29, 2010 7:01 am Post subject: Joseph Smith |
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Some of the stuff about this guy is pretty wild.
No offense to mormons. Any mormons feel free to point out where I'm wrong.
Nobody else ever saw these golden plates, right? JS claims to have been shown these golden plates, but the angel won't let him brign them off the hill, then when he finally does, nobody else is allowed to see them, but then then angel takes the plates back?
and he saw the mormon bible in a rock at the bottom of his hat?
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Chattwake
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Sinkoumn
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 7:28 am Post subject: |
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"Dumb, dumb, dumb, dummmmmmb"
-Southpark
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Holy crap. I just read the wiki page on joseph smith. woh.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: |
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The Southpark episode on it is fairly accurate. He translated the book through "Seer" stones which he placed in a hat, then dictated to his friend.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933
What they don't get into is things like the Book of Abraham:
http://www.bookofabraham.com/short6.html
And the sexual deviancy of JS, bringing polygamy as a command down from God, marrying underage girls, stealing other member's wives. This is all well documented. Mormons say that Joseph Smith was inspired by God during the periods that he was translating the texts they believe in, but that he was a troubled guy. Brigham Young corrected the path of Joseph Smith when he went off the deep end and led them to the promised land (Utah).
Really there are 2 things that separate LDS from a fringe cult.
1. The Book of Mormon is a substantial book, written in a similar writing style to the King James, which pulls on the heartstrings.
2. Brigham Young, a more reasonable man, took the reigns away from the kook who founded it and saved it from going off the deep end
Without those 2 things we'd be looking at another Branch Dividians.
From that BoA article:
| Quote: | So What Are We To Believe?
Obviously Joseph Smith had a vivid imagination and was perfectly capable of creating 'translations' of real and imagined ancient texts. Some have argued that it is virtually unthinkable that Joseph could imagine a text such as the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, but if you think about it, these two books pale in comparison to the complexity and imaginative history and geography of say perhaps, The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. No one argues that the Tolkien trilogy must be true historical non-fiction based on its level of detail or believability. Joseph’s work is far less developed; why would we doubt that it could be imagined?
When Joseph first published his translation of the Egyptian papyri, hieroglyphics were undecipherable. Today they are fairly easy to decipher. In his day, he was safe in saying anything he wanted; there was no way to prove that his translation was false at the time of the publication. But with the resurfacing of the papyri he used for the translation, we now have a tool to use to evaluate Joseph once and for all. What do you think? Does the book say anything about Joseph's “divine” abilities? His status as a prophet can easily be evaluated in this Book. It's up to you to decide. |
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Secret names and holy underwear batman!
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Chattwake, can you kill that first image? It f'd up the margins.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Holy crap, reading the wiki page now. You couldn't make this stuff up. How anyone can trust a single thing this guy did is beyond me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: |
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I think his early life story, or all of it, would make a pretty good movie.
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flixmaster
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microman
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Wakebrad wrote: | | Chattwake, can you kill that first image? It f'd up the margins. |
Seriously, plus think of all the people still using dial-up. They're waiting two hours for it to load in the hope that there will be a picture of ladies in their magic underwear.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: |
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bwhahahaha!!
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
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microman, 
flixmaster, can you kill that image for us?
I don't know why I'm so fascinated with Mormons. I think it's because it's so overly kooky, and obviously false that I have a hard time believing people believe it. Yet they do, which proves that people will literally believe anything.
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Faust
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Oh man I can't help myself
| Quote: | Anyone notice that MM always enters a thread at the 12th post mark? Usually it's right after CB's 2nd post and Okie's first?
Sometimes I think WB.com is hell since the same annoying stuff happens over and over and over. |
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Chattwake
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Before my first image was killed, MM was the 12th post exactly.
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King of the Tigers
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| Posted: Sep 29, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| If you really want to know and understand more about Joseph Smith why don't you try the book Rough Stone Rolling?
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Sep 30, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Who wrote it? Is it is it a mormon author, am ex mormon, a non mormon? Where is the author coming from?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Sep 30, 2010 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Looks like it is on Amazon...seems like the writing below would answer the questions...
| Quote: |
Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling [Deckle Edge] [Hardcover]
Richard Lyman Bushman (Author)
From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. How should a historian depict a man's life when that man, and his religion, remain a mystery to so many 200 years after his birth? Bushman, an emeritus professor at Columbia University and author of Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, greatly expands on that previous work, filling in many details of the founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and carrying the story through to the end of Smith's life. Many continue to view Smith as an enigmatic and controversial figure. Bushman locates him in his historical and cultural context, fleshing out the many nuances of 19th-century American life that produced such a fertile ground for emerging religions. The author, a practicing Mormon, is aware that his book stands in the intersection of faith and scholarship, but does not avoid the problematic aspects of Smith's life and work, such as his practice of polygamy, his early attempts at treasure-seeking and his later political aspirations. In the end, Smith emerges as a genuine American phenomenon, a man driven by inspiration but not unaffected by his cultural context. This is a remarkable book, wonderfully readable and supported by exhaustive research. For anyone interested in the Mormon experience, it will be required reading for years to come. (Oct. 10)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
From The New Yorker
Joseph Smith claimed that he was visited by an angel who gave him golden plates from which he transcribed the Book of Mormon, and he had organized a church before he was twenty-five. His personal charisma and his administrative genius helped spread Mormonism throughout the Western United States, turning the sect into a legislative federation complete with social and political institutions. There were always those who thought Smith a charlatan and a fanatic, and, in 1844, at the age of thirty-eight, he was fatally shot by an angry mob. Bushman is both an emeritus professor of history at Columbia and a practicing Mormon, and his exhaustive biography carefully treads a path between reverence and objectivity, as when he investigates the phenomenon of "plural marriage"; Smith, in order to establish "a Righteous race . . . uppon the Earth," had more than thirty wives.
Copyright © 2006 The New Yorker
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Sep 30, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is a biography by a Mormon scholar that pretends to offer a realistic portriat of the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or Mormons) complete with all the flaws, contradictions, and inconsistencies that characterized Smith's life. But it does nothing of the sort. True, there is enough refreshingly candid information in the book to spook even the most devout Mormon, if he or she is unfamiliar with the controversy surrounding Smith's life. But Bushman ultimately whitewashes many of the most troubling aspects of that controversy |
Sounds about how I expect. Its hard to trust someone's objective viewpoint on a subject when they have so much invested in one result.
Just as Christians laud the book A Case for Christ, I found it to be severely lacking. The answers were sufficient for anyone who hadn't ever really asked the question "does this make sense?" It gave you a bubbly feeling but really just scratched the surface. Christians would give it 100,000 5* reviews on amazon, that doesn't make it correct or a good book.
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Bambamski
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: |
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What I don't understand is that most people that claim to be Christians, whether they are Catholic, Protestant, fing crazy Baptists ect ect get off on calling out the Mormons. They all believe in god the Mormons have a north American "bible". The only difference is the Mormon church isn't run by a bunch of pedophiles like the old school churches. I mean for f sakes how many go to the Protestant church? Wasn't that the church that the king of England started so he could get divorced or something? How the f can you belong to that knowing the only reason it exists was because a king wanted out....
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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chavez
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Bambamski, weren't all churches started by man to obtain control over xxxx?
**Ducks and runs for cover** 
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Bambamski, man, your knowledge on this is pretty pathetic. The protestant reformation was started by Martin Luther and had nothing to do with the King of England.
Catholics and protestants both believe in essentially the same Bible. Catholics have an extra book or 2 that protestants don't, but overall it's the same foundation.
The Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc are so incredibly, wildly different from the beliefs of Catholics and Protestants. To give you a comparison: Jews believe in the Old Testament, but not the new. You knew that right? Comparing a Mormon to a Christian is like comparing a Christian to a Jew. They are based on the same foundation, but so much was added with new books that they are really different religions. Mormons will tell you they are Christian, but it's really just a ploy to seem more mainstream. It would make more sense for Christians to call themselves Jews, because they at least believe the whole of the Old Testament. Mormons discount/disbelieve large portions of the Bible.
Anyway, this thread isn't about propping up Christianity and putting down Mormons. It has nothing to do with Christianity. And while Catholics have an ongoing problem with pedophiles, no religion is void of them, including Mormons.
Who here lives in a glass house? Other than Okie, who just posted rather neutral book reviews, no one is particularly religious here.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Bambamski, if a person believes the Bible to be the truth, one key aspect is that the Bible essentially deems it is the absolute. No other book after it was written is considered to be the truth or the Word of God. It also spends a lot of time talking about other books and teachers as being false prophets. Since Mormonism came about after this, it falls into the category of false prophet by what was written in the Bible and believed to be truth by Christian denominations. Thats why Christian denominations will call out Mormonism, among other religions.
Wakebrad made a couple good points too about how things differ. It does ultimately boil down to what you believe is the truth.
chavez,
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Bambamski
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Wakebrad,
calling you out you don't know stuff. It's actually funny. Have you read the book of Mormon?
Are you saying the mormons don't follow the bible? ahhh they do. The book of mormon is the North American history during the same time period as the bible. They don't follow one or the other they refer to them both. When it's all said and done, they believe in God, they believe in Christ, they don't believe it's ok for their priest to fondle some kid and get away with it like some other religions.
I don't pretend to know a lot about religions but I'm pretty sure I know more then most here.
What makes a Christian? what's the definition? according to Wikipedia
Christian (pronounced /ˈkrɪstjen'/ ( listen)) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians believe is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the son of God.[1][2] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), a description of God as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit.
not sure why you think Mormons don't fit that as they believe exactly that.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Thats why Christian denominations will call out Mormonism, among other religions.
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that and secret names, magic underwear, and dying to rise as the "god" of your own planet.
But is that any more outlandish, objectively, than other religions?
| Quote: |
I don't pretend to know a lot about religions but I'm pretty sure I know more then most here.
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Would most have confused Martin Luther with Henry VIII, and protestantism with anglicanism?
Again, I think you are wrong, I don't think Mormons believe in the trinity. Correct me if I am wrong. Mormons wouldn't be monotheistic either, if they believed that man can become god of his own planet upon death, right? Am I mistaken? Maybe I am.
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Neognosis
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DRAGON88
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Bambamski
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't think they blieve they'll be god of their own planet? is that what Catholics believe????? serious? Wow that's fd up
Mormons believe they will go to heaven. and live with God and Jesus Christ. I'm 99.9% sure they don't believe they're going be the god of their own planet.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Bambamski wrote: | I don't think they blieve they'll be god of their own planet? is that what Catholics believe????? serious? Wow that's fd up
Mormons believe they will go to heaven. and live with God and Jesus Christ. I'm 99.9% sure they don't believe they're going be the god of their own planet. |
Well, maybe Mormons you've met claim to not believe that or don't talk about it, but it's pretty hard to deny it is part of the teaching.
| Quote: | Mormons believe that God created multiple worlds and each world has people living on it. They also believe that multiple Gods exist but each has their own universe. We are only subject to our God and if we obtain the highest level of heaven we can become gods ourselves.
D&C 76: 24
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
D&C 93: 10
10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.
Moses 1: 33
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
D&C 76: 108
108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.
D&C 131: 1-5
1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood. |
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: |
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No, catholics believe that if you ask for forgiveness before you die, you can go to heaven, which is to be in God's presence and it's awsome.
The link I posted says that they believe there are multiple universes, each with their own god, but you only have to listen to the god of this universe. and you can be your own universe god if you are really good.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Bambamski, your lack of knowledge has proven unworthy of response.
| Quote: | | Again, I think you are wrong, I don't think Mormons believe in the trinity. Correct me if I am wrong. Mormons wouldn't be monotheistic either, if they believed that man can become god of his own planet upon death, right? Am I mistaken? Maybe I am. |
Mormon's don't believe in the Trinity and constantly bring that up to try to throw off Christians in a debate. Saying that nowhere is "Trinity" found in the Bible, that it's a made up concept. And it is, it's an interpretation on what the Bible talks about as God. Mormons call themselves monotheistic because there is only 1 God of this planet.
You'll find Mormons are unlikely talk about the questionable things in their religion, the holy underwear, becoming a God of a planet, etc. If you try to discuss these issues they will likely skirt the issue and if you debate they will typically throw out this verse "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs." That is to say you are not worthy to hear such things.
There is a systematic approach on what to tell new-comers. First starting very mild, and when you've progressed the ranks enough they tell you the crazier parts of the religion. Kind of like boiling a frog - you have to do it slow.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: |
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That systematic approach sounds more like Scientology.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: |
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cameraboy, it's both. They have a very rigid structure in LDS, almost military style. There are verses in the BoM that talk about easing people into the religion, but I'm having trouble remembering/find them.
If you get a Mormon at your door and ask them about their garments or temple rituals, they won't talk to you about them.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 10:54 am Post subject: |
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My partner when I was a photojournalist was a mormon. He did talk about the "garm" though.
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Wakebrad
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| Posted: Oct 01, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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cameraboy, you must have developed a rapport with him. Generally they'll talk about them being "sacred," which really means "secret."
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