How important is the boat when it comes to wake jumps?

[Christobull]

I'm brand new to this message board, but I've tried to find help already on existing topics. I cannot for the life of me clear both wakes with my current set-up. Been riding for several years off and on, and have, in the past, jumped wake to wake with inferior set-ups. I've upgraded all my equipment as my comfort and skill level improved, which I now feel very confident riding on and even preforming several basic tricks despite my inability to clear the second wake.

My current set up is this:

Hyperlite Apex 142 with Remix Bindings (friend has a 137 that I use off and on)
Carbon fiber handle
Spectra rope with all the additional lengths removed (currently about 70' after the addition of a centering "V" attachment)

I have a selection of three boats, none of them suited to wakeboarding. I've never been pulled behind a wakeboarding boat or one with a tower/pylon.

Centurion 2102 with as much added ballast that the motor can handle. Presumably the best wake, but about 18'-20' gap at preferred speed 19-21mph)
16'5' Cheetah roundabout with ballast. (by far the most narrow wake, but also the least depth, very little pop)
17' Bananza tri-hull with wake generated by an angled trim tab. (best sculpted wake, but still small)

Surely the wake couldn't make that big of a difference, nor could the tower, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've tried to find as much on-line help as possible, but I feel like my technique is sound with the exception of my poor upper-body strength causing me to be lazy with handle placement late in the day. I seem to get the most height when performing a raley or HS front roll. Could there be something from those tricks that I could incorporate into my normal wake jump?

My average height from my jumps are only about 4' or 5'. I can consistently case the second wake, but this has ended in disaster so many times, I'm getting concerned about the ensuing brain damage I'm likely bringing on myself.

I know this is a lot of info, but I tried to cover anything you might want to ask. I can probably get a low quality video on here before long so you can see my technique. Thanks in advance.

[Wakebrad]

IMO,

In order of most important to least:
Technique - Get The Book to learn proper technique. You can do a lot with a little
Rope - Non-stretch is a must. After that it's not a big deal
Speed control - consistent speed
Wake - size and shape
Board - The right size is the most important with solid bindings
Tower - Helps with air and consistency, major difference when trying inverts
Handle - As long as it's not a 10" ski handle

So to answer your question the boat (speed, wake, tower) almost all rank higher than board/bindings/handle

I wakeboarded from 99 until 2003 and in that time I learned how to go wake to wake and land a 360. In 2004 I landed my first 2 inverts, learned front side 180s all the way around, got comfortable toeside, added grabs. 2004 was the year I bought a wakeboat. I learned just as much riding behind a consistent boat.

Here's as of 2007:
http://www.vimeo.com/4374220

[Christobull]

Well, from that I would have to assume that my problem is most likely my technique, and not so much the boat or the wake. The wake is inconsistent, partially attributed to the driver and other passengers not paying attention to maintaining balance in the boat, but this is just a downfall of the hull design. It usually creates a wake with a lot of pop on one side and not the other, but is never consistent. When it's really off balance, neither wake is any good. (like hitting a curb on one side, and going over a roller on the other) I can pull off a 360 but without the height, there's no room for any style to it. I know I'm tying to run before I can walk attempting inverts, but it's just frustrating. I've heard of The Book, where would be the best place to buy? Hopefully down the line, a wake sports boat is in my future. Thanks for your input.

[howabouttheiris]

70' is still fairly long at 19MPH.

I recommend riding a shorter line (like 55') until you can easily clear that and then increase length 5' at a time.

My preferred setup is more like 70' and 23MPH, but I commonly revert to 55' and 19MPH if the water is rough or I for the last set of the day.

[Wakebrad]

Christobull, just make sure to get the balance right. Having an inconsistent wake, it makes it difficult to learn good technique. The side that is washing out needs more weight. When you fall just ask people to scoot over.

Either that or find other people to ride with.

[Christobull]

I do agree about the speed/length. I don't like being that close to the boat though. Like I said, I've taken out all the additional sections, so I would rather increase my speed rather than tie a knot in my good rope. I feel like I should be riding faster anyway if I'm going to really get serious about it.

As for the driver, does The Book cover driving? I think that's the only way I'd ever get him to listen to me. When I'm in the boat I'm usually driving. I grew up going to the lake and being around boats and watersports. I'm very thankful that my parents practically raised me to be a good boat driver, but he doesn't have that same background and it's his boat. When I first started riding with him, I couldn't convince him not to pull me across the middle of the lake when it's rough. Finding new people to ride with wouldn't hurt, but poor drivers or no, they are still some long-time friends. What can you do? haha

[Wakebrad]

Someone else can probably chime in here but I think the book has a driving section and it covers a lot of good stuff.

[Christobull]

Your advice definitely paid off. Here's a video I posted on another topic as well from this past Saturday. I still need quite a bit of work, as you will see, but my confidence level is up at least. Let me know if you have any advice. The day after this, I was much better with my progressive edge and was able to see what a difference it made in the height I got. Also got better about not absorbing the wake as much as I do several times in this video.

http://vimeo.com/5461109

[pateaux]

You are clearing the wake with speed and not air. try shortening your approach and concentrating on really standing tall thru the wake. I had the same problem early on, and not coming in so fast fixed it. Coming in fast makes it harder to time it right, IMO.

[Okie Boarder]

[Christobull]

Okie Boarder, funny that you mention that, because I watched the section of driving just the other day, and planned on showing it to him. The only thing that I did differently before watching it was the way I turn around at the end of a line. I used to drive a dog bone to turn around, but the way it describes it makes much more sense and has one less turn to deal with. I'm not afraid to tell him if he gave me a bad pull (we've been friends long before wakeboarding), and have at times told him to watch how I pull the other riders, so he can see the difference. I don't think I'm a perfect driver, but my biggest pet-peeves are the power turns to pick up a rider, driving ovals, and not going in straight lines. I wish The Book covered multiple boats driving the same line because that's something I think I could improve on. I could probably get him to come out with me when we can work out a time to come ride with you guys though.

[JeffreyCH]

I did the same thing with speed jumps and locking my knees at the wake, other then that some pretty solid riding HS. You need to work on leveling out your TS jumps, you are coming up way tail heavy. Once you get a solid edge to level pop you will feel it right away, it's very smooth and fluid, lock that in your head.

As for drivers, I've taught 2 of my brothers and one good friend to drive for me behind an unweighted I/O. The best way to teach a driver is to teach them to ride. Give em a couple good pulls after they get up, after they get the basic control, give em a crappy run, if you can't get him to listen any other way. My brother Jimmy was the worst because he drove for skiers for so many years.

[Christobull]

At what point do you want to be fully extended? I hear people say, "off the top of the wake", but I assume you would stand tall at the base of the wake. Is that right?

[Wakebrad]

Christobull, definitely at the top of the wake. At the base of the wake you should be pretty much fully squatted and at the top of the wake you should be fully extended. This timing takes a while to learn and to get consistent and will depend on the wake you're on, speed, etc. It's a constant adjustment.

[pet575]

Christobull, I realize you ride with what you have but is there anything you can do to help steepen your wake? Are you riding with any ballast? How much? Where is it placed? Are you riding with the trim up at all?

Only asking because that wake looks pretty flat but there are many things you could do to help that out. Would also help your air on the w2w.

BTW, I LOVED the faceplant at the end of that video!

[Christobull]

Well, this is the basic mock up of that boat.

16' Cheetah I/O that's older than I am.
120 HP Mercruiser Engine with a four blade prop.

We have filled the ski locker with ballast, but it's hard to say how much. All I know is that I can't pick up the bag.

The day we filmed this, we had roughly 150lbs in the bow, 150lbs in the rear, and the most important ballast system in any boat, an ice-chest full of beer in the center, plus two passengers.

The motor was trimmed just slightly to make the top of the wake crisp, but the problem was that all this extra weight was just too much for that little boat. I left the beginning, where I'm getting up from the deep start, on there to show how much time it took to get up to speed. We were literally going as fast as we could in that video.

The next day, we left out the two 150lb bags, and couldn't tell any difference hardly in the wake. Smaller, yes, but I got my best air that day.

I honestly feel like, I'm a long way from that boat holding me back. For as long as the W2W eluded me, I was starting to wonder, but now I'm certain that it will take me a long time to reach my limit behind that boat.

Maybe next year I'll tighten the belt, and buy one of those A22's, so you can't complain about my wake size. I don't need to compensate for anything.

[pet575]

No, I wasn't complaining about your wake so much as I was wondering if there were things you could do to improve the wake.

How fast were you riding? Maybe that is what I was seeing, was flat wake due to speed. I'm betting you could put all 300 lbs in front, trim the motor up more than you had it, and be able to stay on plane somewhere between 20-22MPH. Give it a try-I think you can get more steepness out of that wake.

That will help you get a little more height but, as you say, improving your technique would as well.

[Christobull]

pet575, we've discussed ways of putting more weight in the front. I'm trying to convince my friend that a hydrofoil on our outdrive would help us as well, but he disagrees. Problem is that there's just not much space up front. Our one bag fills the floor area in the bow. If we could find some bags to put in the storage compartments under the seats, we could do that. I'm thinking it might be a waste of time because I'm worried about having that much in the front causing the wake to wash out. Without the extra 300lbs we can trim the motor up quite a bit which gives us about the same steepness I'd expect to achieve from the added weight to the bow.

BTW, the speedo doesn't work very well, but based off our riding behind other boats, we should be in the 21-23mph range, so yes, the wake is slightly smaller because of that, but it's much more solid than the wake is in the 18-20mph range which is pretty washy.

[Wakebrad]

Your technique looks decent. It's just tough with those conditions (speed and wake size). I would definitely put more weight in the front and trim the engine a little more. Weight in the back is probably not helping you. Trimming the engine up forces the back of the boat into the water. You need to put weight up front to even that out so the wake doesn't get washy.

A hydrofoil would probably help but you would need to counterbalance that with more weight in the front.

[Christobull]

Wakebrad, Thanks for the advice. I'll put up some better pictures or something next time out so you can get a better look at it in higher quality close up. That video was shot on a low end point and shoot since we didn't take the video camera out. We'll keep playing with it, but the day after I was pretty satisfied with it. After all, the boat is just getting us by, and we plan to have a new pull next year. I'm torn between buying a used boat that I can buy outright and renovate to some extent, or just go all out and make payments on something almost new. Seriously considering the A22 if I go that route. This old boat has a certain sense of nostalgia to it. I dream of getting really good and riding behind a tiny old boat like this following around the Mastercrafts and Malibus showing them up. haha One can dream.