Sometimes the lowest bid isn't always the best bid

JeffreyCH

I bid a roof for some peoples rental about a month ago, I use a pretty standard formula for figuring roof bids x amount per square to tear off per layer, x amount to re shingle, depends on the pitch and height or the roof. Anyway, these people call me and ask if I can match a bid that is almost 1500 less then my bid. I said no way, that would have been pretty much my whole profit margin.

So I get a call from these people last week, and their brand new roof is leaking, and the guy that did wouldn't answer his phone....REALLY. Anyway I go to look at it, and OMG I've NEVER seen anything like it. There were nails randomly shot into the exposed tin of 1 of the valleys, 1 valley the tin didn't even go all the way to the peak(this is where they noticed the first leak) the capping connecting the hip was installed upside down, on and on. I called the people back and told them they should sue the guy.

When I go to do a bid the first thing I do after introductions is hand them a packet with copies of my lic. and ins. a list of services with an intro paragraph describing my experience, and a long list of references. Since I know a lot of you are home owners, I figured I'd share this horror story with you. If a contractor is unwilling to provide you with at least proof of ins. and references be very wary, even if that bid is considerably cheaper.

Some pics

SaveTheMotherland1 · Soul Rider Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 314 City: Eugene

You get what you pay for i guess Sad

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 22, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject:

SaveTheMotherland1, Yes you do, and now they get to pay for it again, we'll be tearing into it next week.

Tyler T · Posted: May 22, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject:

I'm so happy to be working on private jobs again where I'm actually allowed to use some of my experience and knowledge to weed out scum-bag low-ballers looking for change orders.

I helped buy out a couple grade schools we built last year and there are so many damn rules around federally funded projects. It's damn near impossible to avoid some of the sneaky dirt-bags and you end up having to explain to your owner why you're holding 200k of their money on a scope package that they get to see you're only into for 125. Thank God for GMP budgeting.

I know that has nothing to do with your situation, you just sparked a nerve in me. Evil or Very Mad

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 22, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject:

Tyler T, I hear ya, I hate scum bag contractors, gives us all a bad name

Wake Trakker · Outlaw Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Posts: 139

I'm in Manufacturing and we have to deal with that kind of workmanship coming back from China. I'm pretty sure they can't get a roof shipped in from China. That first picture is actually funny(did a little roofing when I was younger). I think the basic principal is that water runs down...Right? Shocked

RampageWake · Posted: May 22, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject:

what are you getting per square now? it was about 150-160 sq with felt, dripedge, 30 yr ELK or comparable archetictural shingle. Tear off, haul off, material and labor. Until the hurricane came. Then it went to 250 - REALLY? I had my garage (18 sq) done for 1500 cash (labor only, I furnished material and sub'd a crew) after the hurricane but before everyone got insurance checks. After the ins $$ started rolling in, you couldn't FIND a crew that could get to your roof for 6 wks -- insane. vette74 is doing a lot of roof inspections now before the owners can obtain windstorm certificates. He too has run across a few shoddy jobs.

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 22, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject:

RampageWake, A straight 4/12 one layer single story tear off will run 180, basically 100 for materials, 40 off and 40 on labor. 2 story multi layer tear off 12/12 about 350 a square. Shingles went through the roof ( pun intended lol) last year with the oil prices, they haven't went back down. I bid 30 yr laminate at 120 a square for materials.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

make sure you put sunblock on that ink religiously.

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 23, 2009 7:06 am Post subject:

cameraboy, That's actually my partner Todd in the pics, I'm running the camera. I've got 14 tats and don't use sunblock at all though, hate the stuff.

_bruky · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 24 May 2009 Posts: 1201

vette74 · Posted: May 27, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject:

I look at 5-6 roofs a day and I have seen only seen a few that bad. The subs are charging 50 per sq. here and ABC had 30 year shingles for $79 per sq. the other day. I was talking to a contractor the other day and he bid $50/sq for a roof and the home owner found someone for $35 and asked if he could beat it. Of course no, 2 weeks later the home owner calls him up after a big rain and told him he had 4 leaks in his house and he couldn't get the other guys to answer the phone. He wanted to know how much he would charge to fix it. He told him $50/ sq to remove and replace all the shingles on the house you buy materials. Laughing

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject:

vette74, Year before last we did 35 off/35 on went to 40 last year with cost of fuel killing me. I figure the cost of labor hasn't went up around here for decades so I'm bumping it a bit. When you say 50, that's 50 off and 50 on right? Yeah ABC here has 3 tab 30yr's for that, laminate are close to 90, then 10 a sq for paper, and another 20 for disposal fees.

I do feel for anyone that has been taken by a shoddy roofer, but not to the point where I will drop my prices. That roof is going to protect your home for over 20 years. If you hire a cheap company (like in Vettes example) on an average 20 sq roof you have "saved" 600 bucks Wink

but what does it really cost in the long run.

vette74 · Posted: May 27, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject:

No it is $50/ sq total off and on including haul off.

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject:

Oh yeah you guys have plenty of illegals down there to make labor cheap lol.

gswake · Posted: May 27, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject:

JeffreyCH, nice backhand. Rolling Eyes

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject:

gswake, You should see my five finger death punch Twisted Evil

Honestly, there is NO other way to do these jobs THAT cheap, I pay out over 50 a square in labor. I refuse to hire illegals, and as such I pay a wage a man can LIVE on. On a per roof basis my crews make more then I do on most jobs, especially after you consider my insurance rates, lic. fees, advertising, vehicle and equipment purchase/maintenance. What it boils down to is this, if you are here illegally then you are not paying taxes, hence the reason you can work cheap. If you are not paying taxes, then you are not an American and should go back where you came from. Greedy contractors that take advantage of this are THE BIGGEST SCUM BAGS EVER, and should be jailed, and their crews deported. PERIOD Evil or Very Mad

vette74 · Posted: May 27, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject:

gswake, He is actually right the crews usually have only 1 person who can barely speak English. Since you have to be proficient in English to pass the citizen test. Not a doubt in my mind.

ohsix · Posted: May 27, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject:

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject:

ohsix, Oh really???? Yes I do withhold taxes, of whom I have 2 Romanian's, a hand full of legal Hispanics, and a couple white Americans, all of whom are LEGAL to work here.

Your post makes me think you are one of two things, either you are a scumbag getting rich of illegal labor and covering your tracks, or you don't know jack about the construction industry and how these things work. Most illegals are held under a 1099 contract labor tax agreement, which means they are responsible for paying their own taxes at the end of the year....yeah fat chance. The other way it works is that the employer makes the worker fill out a w-4, takes the info and generates a 1099, and still withholds "taxes" that go right into his pocket. Either way it is the greedy taking advantage of honest hard working people that because for whatever reason they didn't come here legally.

White trash roofers huh???? Spoken a true silverspoon A-hole. I'll tell ya what pal, jump on your ritzy private plane and fly here. We can go to the gym where I train, strap on some gloves and you can talk all the smack you want while I'm breaking your face. Twisted Evil

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

dude. you show up to a job in a wifebeater and ragged out sneakers and you are pissed about being called white trash? really?

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject:

jt09, I do???? MMMMKKKK I'm runnin off to wally world to buy up all the wifebeaters they got Laughing

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

is that not you in the pictures? or one of your employees?

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 27, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject:

That's my partner Todd lol. Yeah I guess now that I think about it he is a bit trashy. lol. I wear dockers and multi-popped collars cause I'm THAT cool Cool

It was just the way ohsix came off to me, pissed me off a bit.

ohsix · Posted: May 28, 2009 6:03 am Post subject:

JeffreyCH, I started out as a laborer in the oilfield building tank batteries then roughnecking. I've worked many 80+ hour weeks alongside illegal immigrants. They get a fake social security card, get a job, and fill out the same tax forms as a legal worker. They have the same taxes withheld from their paycheck as a legal worker, but they never file a return. The illegals I worked with were paid the same as legal workers. They were more desirable because they showed up to work sober everyday, worked harder than most Americans, and didn't steal everything they could while they were there. I'd rather work with someone who speaks little to no English but is safe than the drunk/high white trash alternative. Maybe on a roof it doesn't really matter, but on a drilling rig, people lose limbs and get killed from other people's mistakes.

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

eeven73 · Posted: May 28, 2009 6:32 am Post subject:

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 28, 2009 7:46 am Post subject:

ohsix, No harm no foul man, I work very hard to keep a professional manner in my business and do things the way they are supposed to be done. It's not easy when I'm under bid by the type of people that do work as posted above. You kind of hit a nerve with your comment.

Guess I'm a bit touchy, this week has been hell Wink

OSHA has been all over everyone's ass here cause 2 roofers died just a week or so ago. I was supposed to start the above roof on Tues. but it rained Tues and Wed., so now instead of a 3 day weekend at the lake I get to work all weekend.......FML

Might just have to slip out for a few sets this evening to make it all better Mr. Green

ctgretzky99 · Posted: May 28, 2009 9:21 am Post subject:

Hmmm...Ill readily admit when I had my landscape design and maint. company, I had 3 El Salvadorian workers that I paid under the table, and 3 American workers in the beginning of the year.

That was about average for the 4 years I was in full swing/successful.

The count:
The illegal guys came every day about 15 minutes before start time (730)
The American guys were 50/50 showing up on time, and 1 out of 10 even showing up every day

The illegal guys worked hard all day long and did what I asked
The American guys slacked off anytime I wasnt looking, and had uncompleted tasks

The illegal guys took a 30 minute lunch and got up themselves to go back to work
The American guys would "forget" what time it was and start again when I would show up to the job after almost an hour.

The illegal guys took initiative to check the machines over, let me know if something was wrong, would just know a blade wasnt sharp or an oil change was needed etc...
The American guys would tell me a week later that something "doesnt seem right" with a machine.

If the El S's were done with a construction project, they would take initiative to do some odd things around like overturn beds, weed, etc...
The American guys would find a shady spot and sleep.

Put it this way, in the 4 peak years, I had the same original 2 El Salvadorians, plus 2 that were half each, and I went through about 15+ American guys that cost me a lot more $ to keep.

I ended up, toward the end, paying the illegals the top $, and the legal Americans the least.

My .02

nu2dagam · Addict Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 505

They are still illegals, what the hell? And not every white man that works labor is a drunk or comes to work half the time. Screen your workers better. There is no excuse for hiring illegal workers. And if you are about to be tearing off a roof and putting one on, a wife beater and ragged out sneakers are exactly what should be worn.

ohsix · Posted: May 28, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject:

nu2dagam, so tell us about your business and/or your experience with illegal workers.

The white men that are good laborers seldom stay laborers for long.

nu2dagam · Addict Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 505

I dont have any, I just dont agree with the practice.

eeven73 · Posted: May 28, 2009 2:04 pm Post subject:

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

lol. 99 hits it out of the park!

screen your workers better? yeah, you get a lot of real sharp guys when you are screening white guys to do landscaping. i was the ONE white guy who stuck on w/ my company in college. me and the boss. only reason i stayed one was i was in the same situation as the mexicans - i needed the money as bad as they did. well that and the boss smoked me out on the job all the time.

JeffreyCH · Posted: May 28, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject:

Well, here's my take on hiring illegals. Simply put 9 times out of 10 they are way under paid, paid without being taxed, or scammed by greedy business owners. I have 5 legal Hispanics that work for me, and over my life Hispanics are the only ones that could ever keep up with on a job site. Yes, I was always promoted before any of them, probably because I am white. Do I think that is fair? Not really, however I am a self motivated ass buster, I like to work hard and don't feel that I was ever promoted solely because I was white.

The thing that gets me is that companies that hire only illegals at lower rates can under bid me very easy, which means that their business grows while mine fails. This in no way promotes a healthy economy for small business owners. Now as these illegal companies grow, what do you think happens, more illegals are needed to fill the jobs I once provided to legal citizens. Now all these families that depended on the income I provided can no longer pay their sub prime mortgages and......well we all see where that led us. Further more because of the amount of illegals in an area the tax base goes to hell, therefore you end up with living conditions that are scarcely better then the barrios they came from in Mexico, instead of a house being sold to a single family like it was intended, you have 5-10 families living there, only one of whom is legal to work here.

I have no problem hiring anyone of any race as long as they are legal to work here and aren't lazy d-bags. If you work for me and don't perform your duties as requested/required, then guess what? Poof you are gone end of story.

Dammit I need a beer now.

_bruky · Wakeboarder.Commie Joined: 24 May 2009 Posts: 1201

Getting rich off illegals? Where can I sign up? Is this like those CEO income at home commercials?