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Dragonlady8
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Apr 01, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: Should all males be circumcised? |
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and the debate goes and on and on....AGAIN
Here's the entire article.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29777922/
| Quote: | Should all males be circumcised?
Some U.S. doctors are reconsidering their position
Mens Health
updated 8:30 a.m. ET, Wed., April. 1, 2009
The day your wife gives birth to a baby boy, the kind, bespectacled face of Marvin L. Wang, M.D., is one that you want to see coming through the recovery-room door. Co-director of newborn nurseries at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Dr. Wang has a perky, conversational bedside manner that puts everyone at ease.
Circumcision, of course, is the surgical removal of the penile foreskin from the glans the fleshy crown of the penis. It is one of the most commonly performed procedures in American hospitals, and except for abortion, it may be the most controversial. The procedure has long been known to reduce the spread of a few rare, serious diseases, and to prevent a few annoying, uncomfortable ones. But in 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) determined that the risk of surgical complications, though small, nearly canceled out the benefits. They neither discouraged nor recommended the procedure. Since then, 16 states have eliminated Medicaid coverage for nearly all circumcisions.
But two years ago, a consortium of experts convened by the World Health Organization and UNAIDS (the United Nations' HIV program) announced that circumcision should indeed "be part of a comprehensive HIV prevention package." It did so because three separate, meticulous medical trials in Kenya, Uganda, and South Africa, involving more than 10,000 men, had proved that circumcision could reduce the risk of female-to-male HIV infection by approximately 60 percent. This discovery is one that, over the next two decades, could save three million lives in Africa alone.
Now, no one believes that the potential health benefits for American males are nearly as great, or as urgent, as they are for men in Africa, where HIV is spread mostly through heterosexual intercourse. Still, similar study results are turning up on this continent, as well. A team of researchers from the CDC, Johns Hopkins, and the Baltimore health department examined the records of more than 1,000 African American males all heterosexual who tested positive for HIV at Maryland clinics. Uncircumcised men were 50 percent more likely to be infected.
These results have caused many U.S. doctors to reconsider their positions. "I've always told families that the health benefits of circumcision are real, but not enough to warrant advocating that all boys be circumcised," says Lise Johnson, M.D., the director of healthy-newborn nurseries at Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital. "But I find these HIV studies pretty striking. The weight of scientific evidence might be shifting in favor of circumcision."
Here in the United States, foreskins were left mostly undisturbed until the second half of the nineteenth century. But it wasn't until the North Africa campaign of World War II that American doctors turned into enthusiastic circumcisers. More than 145,000 American GIs based there slacked off on their cleaning regimens and came down with foreskin-related ouches chiefly, balanoposthitis (inflammation of the foreskin and glans), phimosis (a foreskin that's too tight to retract over the glans), and paraphimosis (a foreskin stuck in the retracted position). After the war, doctors advanced a theory that circumcision reduces rates of cervical cancer a hypothesis now confirmed by scientific research.
Circumcision became routine, but anesthesia wasn't part of the plan. That, more than any other factor, may have provoked the fiery anti-circumcision movement that casts its long shadow over the Internet.
Anesthesia now used during procedure
Isaac is a newborn whose mother, months before she gave birth, made the decision to circumcise him. He awaits Dr. Wang atop a small operating table. His expression is blasι until a nurse standing over him slides a sugar-coated pacifier into his mouth. His eyes open wide and he commences sucking with gusto. Sugar, Dr. Wang says, is known to send a rush of endorphins to certain parts of the brain, dulling sensitivity to pain.
Dr. Wang gently wraps Isaac's legs in a soft harness. Until fairly recently, he remarks, it was standard practice to restrain babies' arms, too. "But it's distressing to them to be tied down like that, and it's really not necessary."
Fortunately, Dr. Wang says, circumcision is no longer performed in American hospitals without anesthesia, as Milos described it. After a quick examination of Isaac's manhood (if that's the right word for it), Dr. Wang administers four evenly spaced injections of lidocaine around the base of the baby's penis; Isaac shows no distress. At that point, Dr. Wang waits 5 minutes for the anesthetic to take effect, then swabs Isaac's privates with sterilizing iodine and gets down to business. He arranges a clamp that pulls the foreskin forward, off the penis, where it can be safely cut off with surgical scissors in one snip. Isaac became agitated only once when his sugary pacifier fell from his mouth. "Usually," says Dr. Wang, "the part they hate most is being washed off afterward. They don't like to feel the cold."
methods that have been proved to help.
Elliot Jones (not his real name) underwent circumcision at age 35. He had a painful case of phimosis, a condition in which the foreskin tightens around the head of the penis, and surgery was the solution. "I heard you lose a lot of sensitivity, but at that point I was in enough pain that I didn't care," says Jones.
"It's a simple surgery, but people think it's painful because it has to do with the penis," says Larry Lipshultz, M.D., chief of the division of male reproductive medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. Most patients choose general anesthesia for the hour-long surgery and go back to work the next day, says Dr. Lipshultz.
For a week after the surgery, Jones would wake up in pain from a morning erection pulling at the dissolvable stitches. But after 2 weeks, his wife was more than ready to test out his newly shorn package. The sensation? "This is better than before," says Jones, now 7 years post-op. "The skin under the foreskin used to be very sensitive sometimes too sensitive. Now that it's aired out, it's a nonissue."
"My wife and I joke that she's the only one who's had the new penis," says Jones. "It's like I was a virgin again."
© 2009 Rodale Inc. All rights reserved |
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nmballa
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| Posted: Apr 01, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Eh... I think I argued against it in the last debate. Now, don't really have an opinion. Guess it doesn't really matter unless you live in Africa or the doctor sneezes. 
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churchy
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| Posted: Apr 01, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| cut the ant eater. |
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Blake
Wakeboarder.com Freak
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| Posted: Apr 01, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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this thread is ghey
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| WattsBarRiDr wrote: | | NO way dude... i ve ridden mostly with like smi pros and sum pro wakeboarders like philip soven and shaun murray and mosty adam fields |
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Sinkoumn
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
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City: Side Lake, MN - Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Apr 01, 2009 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, don't cut it, then have dudes that think it's kewl to have stinky wee-wees  THINK OF THE WOMEN THAT"D BE RUINED!!!!
Heh heh, Dr. WANG 
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Sinkoumn
Wakeboarder.Commie
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| Posted: Apr 01, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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April fooooooo's 
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Commodore
Ladies Man
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Trim the sucker! |
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finkle
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I hope this thread doesn't make 4 pages like the last one did.
The general consensus among the guys was cut it. A few sporting anteaters were saying leave it alone....obviously. I think some girls chimed in and said they preferred the cut version.
boobybunny was the major proponent of leaving it alone which is pretty much pointless since she doesn't even have one.
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| Best Quote Ever wrote: | | 'No regrets', that's my motto.....well, that and 'everybody wang chung tonight' |
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microman
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: |
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I can't help but get the feeling that article has some bias. With the exception of adult circumcision in some African countries regarding HIV, there appears to be no consensus in the medical literature for example about any protective element to circumcision. Obviously those results cannot easily be transposed onto Western countries. As we've seen by the threads here in the past though it can be a passionate argument that is based more on emotion than fact.
As an example, here are two recent studies from New Zealand a developed country, that found no protective effect for circumcision when dealing with HPV or STIs. Yet it keeps getting reported that it does offer some protection.
| Quote: |
Male circumcision and serologically determined human papillomavirus infection in a birth cohort.
Circumcision has been reported to protect against infection with human papillomavirus (HPV) in men, but results have been inconsistent. We followed males in a birth cohort born in Dunedin, New Zealand, in 1972 and 1973 from age 3 to 32 years. Seropositivity at age 32 years for the oncogenic types HPV-16 and 18, and the nononcogenic types 6 and 11, was studied in relation to maternal reports of circumcision status at age 3 for 450 men. Seropositivity to any of these types was associated with lifetime number of sexual partners (P = 0.03), and lower moral-religious emphasis of the family of origin (P < 0.001).
Circumcision was not found to be protective, with the adjusted odds ratio (95% confidence interval) for HPV6/11/16/18 seropositivity among the circumcised compared with the uncircumcised being 1.4 (0.89-2.2).
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Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2009 Jan;18(1):177-83.
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Circumcision and risk of sexually transmitted infections in a birth cohort.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the impact of early childhood circumcision on sexually transmitted infection (STI) acquisition to age 32 years. STUDY DESIGN: The circumcision status of a cohort of children born in 1972 and 1973 in Dunedin, New Zealand was sought at age 3 years. Information about STIs was obtained at ages 21, 26, and 32 years. The incidence rates of STI acquisition were calculated, taking into account timing of first sex, and comparisons were made between the circumcised men and uncircumcised men. Adjustments were made for potential socioeconomic and sexual behavior confounding factors where appropriate.
RESULTS: Of the 499 men studied, 201 (40.3%) had been circumcised by age 3 years. The circumcised and uncircumcised groups differed little in socioeconomic characteristics and sexual behavior. Overall, up to age 32 years, the incidence rates for all STIs were not statistically significantly different-23.4 and 24.4 per 1000 person-years for the uncircumcised and circumcised men, respectively. This was not affected by adjusting for any of the socioeconomic or sexual behavior characteristics.
CONCLUSIONS: These findings are consistent with recent population-based cross-sectional studies in developed countries, which found that early childhood circumcision does not markedly reduce the risk of the common STIs in the general population in such countries. |
J Pediatr. 2008 Mar;152(3):383-7. |
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Commodore
Ladies Man
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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All the girls that have given me blowjobs say they like it better cut.
Damnit, I'm giving my son the same opportunities. It has nothing to do with religion for me. |
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microman
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 13 May 2004
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Just going back to the "bias" part, here's an piece from the BBC reporting on the same story.
| Quote: | Call for higher circumcision rate
Circumcision should be routinely considered as a way to reduce the risk of sexually transmitted infections, argue US experts.
They spoke out after research found circumcision significantly cut the risk of infection with herpes and the cancer-causing human papillomavirus.
Circumcision is known to sharply reduce the risk of HIV infection.
But the study, featured in the New England Journal of Medicine, failed to convince UK experts.
The research, carried out by scientists in Uganda, involved nearly 3,500 men and monitored their sexual activity over a period of up to two years.
The researchers, from Johns Hopkins University, found circumcision reduced the risk of herpes by 25%, and human papillomavirus (HPV) by a third.
HPV causes cervical cancer in women, and genital warts in both sexes.
Circumcision rates have been declining in the US and are lowest among black and Hispanic patients - the groups with the highest rates of HIV, herpes and cervical cancer.
Writing in the journal, Dr Matthew Golden and Dr Judith Wasserheit, from the University of Washington, said: "These new data should prompt a major reassessment of the role of male circumcision not only in HIV prevention but also in the prevention of other sexually transmitted infections."
Dr Wasserheit went on to say: "All providers who care for pregnant women and infants have a responsibility to assure that mothers and fathers know that circumcision could help protect their sons from the three most common and most serious viral sexually transmitted infections, all of which cannot currently be cured."
UK scepticism
The reason why a foreskin might increase the risk of infection with various viruses is unclear.
However, research has suggested that a man with a damp penis has a greater risk of being infected by HIV.
Various reasons for this have been put forward, including wetness allowing viruses to stick more easily to the penis, or creating tiny ulcers on the surface of the penis through which a virus might enter.
Dr Colm O'Mahony, a sexual health expert from the Countess of Chester Foundation Trust Hospital in Chester, said the US had an "obsession" with circumcision being the answer to controlling sexually transmitted infections.
He said: "Sure, a dry skinned penis is a bit less likely to contract HIV, herpes and possibly genital warts but it will get infected eventually."
Dr O'Mahony also said pushing circumcision as a solution sent the wrong message.
"It suggests that it is women who infect innocent men - let's protect the innocent men.
"And it allows men who don't want to change their irresponsible behaviour to continue to sleep around and not even use a condom."
Keith Alcorn, from the HIV information service NAM, also warned against a knee jerk reaction.
He said: "We have to be careful not to take evidence from one part of the world and apply it uncritically to others.
"Male circumcision will have little impact on HIV risk for boys born in the UK, where the risk of acquiring HIV heterosexually is very low.
"Girls can be vaccinated against HPV and so protected from cervical cancer, and condoms protect against herpes."
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7960798.stm |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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A little off subject, but mentioned in the first article. I wonder why we continue to try to "cure" AIDS. AIDS is the cure, let it run it's course. 
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Hollywood
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Sinkoumn, while I was peeing last night I remembered the article, Dr. Wang! Got me.
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microman
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Joined: 13 May 2004
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | A little off subject, but mentioned in the first article. I wonder why we continue to try to "cure" AIDS. AIDS is the cure, let it run it's course. |
Hmm, is that a racist or homophobic joke? |
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Neognosis
Ladies Man
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Can you imagine the outrage if men were chiming in the women should have their labia trimmed and neatened up because they are ugly otherwise?
Holy siht, that would be a siht storm of epic porportions.
We figured that nature/God put it there, we aren't going to cut it off. We'll just teach him to keep it clean.
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DCdave56
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Chicks think it is gross when you aren't cut, so I have therefore been enternly grateful that mine is cut!!! And that my friends is THE bottom line.
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Spread the stoke. |
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nu2dagam
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| DCdave56 wrote: | | Chicks think it is gross when you aren't cut, so I have therefore been enternly grateful that mine is cut!!! And that my friends is THE bottom line. |
I could not agree more. BobbyBunny said otherwise, but we snipped our son without even talking to each other about it. It was pretty much a given.
I can't help but get the feeling that article has some bias. With the exception of adult circumcision in some African countries regarding HIV, there appears to be no consensus in the medical literature for example about any protective element to circumcision. Obviously those results cannot easily be transposed onto Western countries. "
Does this not make any correlation or all you talking all out consensus, because that we be impossible to attain IMO.
Microman said, "I can't help but get the feeling that article has some bias. With the exception of adult circumcision in some African countries regarding HIV, there appears to be no consensus in the medical literature for example about any protective element to circumcision. Obviously those results cannot easily be transposed onto Western countries."
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Okie Boarder
Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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City: Edmond
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| microman wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | A little off subject, but mentioned in the first article. I wonder why we continue to try to "cure" AIDS. AIDS is the cure, let it run it's course. |
Hmm, is that a racist or homophobic joke? |
Neither, actually.
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If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Aubs
Motorboat Queen
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 9167
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All the girls that have given me blowjobs say they like it better cut. |
Haugy - Is that something u usually asked them mid-way through? I personally have never been asked that question in the middle of one of those... maybe I'm spending time with the wrong guys!
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Neognosis
Ladies Man
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: |
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When they are fully hard, they don't look all that different anyway.
I've had european girls think mine was weird because it IS cut, so....
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Sinkoumn
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 26 Jun 2003
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City: Side Lake, MN - Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: |
I've had european girls think mine was weird because it IS cut, so.... |
...so, European girls are weird is what you're saying
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nmballa
Wakeboarder.com Freak
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | When they are fully hard, they don't look all that different anyway.
I've had european girls think mine was weird because it IS cut, so.... |
Pretty much correct. When it's standing at attention you can't see the difference at all.
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jt09 wrote:
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Commodore
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Aubs wrote: | | Quote: | | All the girls that have given me blowjobs say they like it better cut. |
Haugy - Is that something u usually asked them mid-way through? I personally have never been asked that question in the middle of one of those... maybe I'm spending time with the wrong guys!
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It's come up before. Don't ya know? My main concern is making the lady happy.
See what ya missed?  |
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LFevo138
Outlaw
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City: Grand Rapids
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: |
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i heard a story of a guy who had sex with a girl in the bar bathroom, because they were in a rush they didnt do any foreplay so she was pretty dry, he didnt feel much pain at the time but when he was done he realized he his fore skin was torn and he was bleeding profusely and had to take a trip to the hospital.
My advise...
Cut that isht off
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
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We didn't circumcise my son, and I'm glad.
I mean, think about it.... cut off a part of your D#ck?
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pet575
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | microman wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | A little off subject, but mentioned in the first article. I wonder why we continue to try to "cure" AIDS. AIDS is the cure, let it run it's course. |
Hmm, is that a racist or homophobic joke? |
Neither, actually. |
Okie, for purposes of disclosure, I LOL'ed at your first post. However, will your opinion change when it mutates into another form that is spread much more easily? I realize that many will still blame whomever they believe is responsible, but it will be too late by then.
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microman
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | microman wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | | A little off subject, but mentioned in the first article. I wonder why we continue to try to "cure" AIDS. AIDS is the cure, let it run it's course. |
Hmm, is that a racist or homophobic joke? |
Neither, actually. |
So what is it the "cure" for then? Migraines? Cancer? |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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pet575, probably not.
microman, risky behavior.
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If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Dragonlady8
Black Widow
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | Can you imagine the outrage if men were chiming in the women should have their labia trimmed and neatened up because they are ugly otherwise?
Holy siht, that would be a siht storm of epic porportions.
We figured that nature/God put it there, we aren't going to cut it off. We'll just teach him to keep it clean. |
You have any idea what a female circumcision entails?
I pretty confident in saying that if you wife had a circ - you would never have married her or get a divorce ASAP.
God also put pedophiles on this earth as well.
Okieboarder nice ignorant comment. You should hope that no one in your family ever needs a blood transfusion and comes down with HIV.
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DRAGON88
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| Posted: Apr 02, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady8 wrote: | | cameraboy wrote: | Can you imagine the outrage if men were chiming in the women should have their labia trimmed and neatened up because they are ugly otherwise?
Holy siht, that would be a siht storm of epic porportions.
We figured that nature/God put it there, we aren't going to cut it off. We'll just teach him to keep it clean. |
You have any idea what a female circumcision entails?
I pretty confident in saying that if you wife had a circ - you would never have married her or get a divorce ASAP.
God also put pedophiles on this earth as well.
Okieboarder nice ignorant comment. You should hope that no one in your family ever needs a blood transfusion and comes down with HIV. |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't female circumcision usually entail the removal of the clitoris? I think the Labia trimming that CB is talking about is actually becoming more common, and I don't think I'd put it in the same league as female circumcision...
Also I'm not sure I'm willing to make the jump that being uncircumcised is on the same level as being a pedophile.
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Dragonlady8
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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DRAGON88, there are women who have had their labias size reduced. Plastic surgeons have the strangest requests.
You need to go back and look at Okieboarders comment on ..... I wasn't in the mood to quote it.
Sorry for your confusion - lil Bro
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ky1e
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: |
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To not believe that circumcision is not beneficial is just dumb. This is new information coming out about the viral diseases, but think about the bacterial std's. You give the bacteria such a greater chance at survival and entrance into the penis by not having your penis circumcised. The foreskin becomes almost a breeding ground of bacteria. And getting cut doesn't hurt. I was 7 days old and they just gave me a little wine, and snipped...maybe a little too much
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Neognosis
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Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 17617
City: Webster
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: |
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You have any idea what a female circumcision entails?
I pretty confident in saying that if you wife had a circ - you would never have married her or get a divorce ASAP
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Did I SAY female circumsion? NO, I didn't.
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I think the Labia trimming that CB is talking about is actually becoming more common, and I don't think I'd put it in the same league as female circumcision...
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What I said was that I suspect the same women who have no hesitation recommending male circumcision because they don't like the look of a natural penis would probably find it very offensive to be told that they should have their labia reduced and trimmed surgically because men like neater vaginas.
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God also put pedophiles on this earth as well.
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That's just a f'ing dumbanalogy. The healthy human body is not born requiring surgical alteration.
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To not believe that circumcision is not beneficial . This is new information coming out about the viral diseases, but think about the bacterial std's. You give the bacteria such a greater chance at survival and entrance into the penis by not having your penis circumcised
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That is true to tiny extent in our modern western society. It was more true before indoor plumbing, or if you are a jew wandering through an arid, gritty, sandy landscape with little water for washing.
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And getting cut doesn't hurt.
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Nonsense. To believe that circumcision doesn't caust pain to the infant .
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nu2dagam
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2009 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| cameraboy wrote: | | Quote: |
[
To not believe that circumcision is not beneficial . This is new information coming out about the viral diseases, but think about the bacterial std's. You give the bacteria such a greater chance at survival and entrance into the penis by not having your penis circumcised
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That is true to tiny extent in our modern western society. It was more true before indoor plumbing, or if you are a jew wandering through an arid, gritty, sandy landscape with little water for washing.
You can hardly get a kid to brush their teeth, you think they are going to take special care of that. He is going to play with it more than he washes it.
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And getting cut doesn't hurt.
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Nonsense. To believe that circumcision doesn't caust pain to the infant . |
Does it hurt to have a tooth pulled with anesthesia. We had our son cut, he didnt flinch and inch any time we touched it to clean it. There is local anesthesia involved. You have no idea what hurts to an infant and what does not.
I for one do not want my child to be made fun of here in America where he is going to be getting the majority of his tail. That "over in Europe they think I am weird because I am cut" does not fly when we live here. Here in america the average high school chic thinks you are weird if you are not circumcised.
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nu2dagam
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 505
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| Posted: Apr 03, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Man i suck at quotes and bold and stuff like that. My forum posting skills need a lot of work. Sorry.
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| Junkee wrote: | | i take my coffee like my women. Black and full of hate. |
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