The Electric Epic 23E

--cresko-- · Soul Rider Joined: 03 Dec 2006 Posts: 496

Hmm not sure what happened above. Anyways the scoop is Epic's plans to release their hybrid model come spring. What are your thoughts?

I think its preally progressive, not 100% electric. It is a hybrid, but I do wonder on what the base price will be. Anyways I think its pretty cool that Epic beat all the others to this technology. I am sure other companies are working on it, but they did get it out first. It does make me a little skeptical on issues, but hopefully they didnt rush too much to get it out before anyone else.

Anyways heres the link

http://23e.epicboats.com/

Brit Rider · Posted: Feb 26, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject:

Chris told me about this along time ago... its incredible to finally see it coming to fruition. Seems like its changed somewhat from the original concept but regardless - this is a great step forward and an impressive leap for Epic in positioning themselves as a brand that needs to be taken very seriously in the coming years.

WakeMikey · Addict Joined: 29 Mar 2008 Posts: 640 City: Fridley

So I was thinking 'oh like a prius' but then there's no 'brakes' or nothing to regenerate power. So apparently theirs charges a bank of batteries. It sounds awesome to leave the dock fully charged and have 1-3 hours of silent boating. But after that, is it straight gas motor? Or does the gas motor recharge the batteries?

Their site says 'save 50% gas in a day of wake' but they consider that only four hours of true boarding. Do you think that is really a full day on the water? I suppose if you go back to the dock for lunch you could recharge!

I think it's awesome, but their boats are already hella expensive for not being a luxury boat. They are as much as a Malibu!

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

The Epic came up over on CCfan. Here's my post:

"This has got to be one of the biggest scams aimed and marketed at the People who think they are going "green"!!

50% less fuel from the engine? True but the other 50% has to come from batteries and where is this energy coming from? Boats aren't like a hybrid car that recharges it's batteries from normally wasted energy by utilizing regenerative braking. Boats won't spin the prop enough when stopping and they also do not go downhills! (they are actually always going up hill!!!)

So, the batteries need to be charged from shorepower. Where is this power coming from - mostly non green power generation!!!"

What's the technology? What about the "cradle to grave" (make/recycle/dispose of) natural resources for the batteries?

DRAGON88 · Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:15 am Post subject:

Commodore · Ladies Man Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 11636

Well you could have a generator that runs off of biodiesel. So the oil by product is being used for fuel consumption, with minimal emmisions. That would charge the batteries.

--cresko-- · Soul Rider Joined: 03 Dec 2006 Posts: 496

The other thing I dont get is how they talked about how you can wakeboard for 1 hour, and surf for 3 on the batteries. Usually when I surf, it uses more gas. And they don't really talk about if the boat is full off ballast ect. I'd think the batteries could barely last 20 mins if the boat was loaded down with 3k of water.

WakeMikey · Addict Joined: 29 Mar 2008 Posts: 640 City: Fridley

Burning gas in a combustion engine is always going to be less efficient than electricity generated at the power plant.

Google's got my back with semi-reliable sources:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080927100559AAq4lTM

http://pbjots.blogspot.com/2008/07/electric-vs-combustion-engine.html

What if you had a solar cell on your boathouse/boatlift? What if you had a small windmill on your lakefront property or someday even an underwater turbine for low-current rivers. Small scale power generation is the future.

Hollywood · Posted: Feb 27, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject:

Fuel consumption compared to a 8.1L engine, ok... Rolling Eyes

Stephan · Guest

8122pbrainard,
You got it wrong, the boat can be powered by plugging it in or you can power it with the combustion engine to charge the batteries while underway. Imagine if you had a solar house and were able to get 3-4 hours of charge on your boat just by hooking it into your houses grid? Winner.

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

Stephan,
You're the one that has it wrong because you missed the point I was trying to make in my previous post. Energy needed to push a boat throught the water and to keep the boat on plane doesn't change with different means of propulsion. The power needed has to come from somewhere whether it's from the genset on board or shorepower. On board genset = fuel. Shorepower = kw's from the house.

Solar? Not yet because the technology isn't there yet. The number (sq. ft.) of panels needed to replace the kw's used is quite high unless you have weeks to wait for a recharge.

DRAGON88 · Posted: Mar 05, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject:

8122pbrainard, I believe that the production of electricity is usually more efficient than a 4 cycle gasoline engine, which wastes a lot of heat energy.

Stephan · Guest

Ahh but you have it wrong in that it doesn't require a full engine to produce the electricity to charge the batteries. You don't have a big block 8.1 liter engine charging batteries, you have something much smaller that uses vastly less fuel. It focuses on charging batteries not propulsion.

What if you had a solar system for your house that recharged a battery bank that you could then tap into for your boat.

All I will say is that you need to take off your CC goggles and give a competitor some credit for pushing the industry in a smart direction. Murray is promoting green tech through Hyperlite and now Epic is doing it for boats. Props to both for pushing the envelope.

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

Stephan · Guest

So educate me. Clearly you know how Epic is building this system. How are their claims incorrect? How is a generator charging batteries less efficient?

I showed this to my buddy who builds commercial and private solar systems and he was pretty adamant that their systems would charge it effectively and the generator would provide juice as needed. What am I missing with my non-physics/electric brain?

krbaugh · Addict Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Posts: 758 City: Edwardsville

90 posts on the subject

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/673696.html?1236000873

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

Stephan,
I'll try to put my thoughts together some of which I've mentioned before in the thread and in the other thread "electric wake boat"

Regarding this boat being "green", it really isn't. Statistics and percentages can be and often are manipulated for the benefit of marketing. Even though this is a hybrid that uses a internal combustion engine and a electric for propulsion, the energy needed to push it through the water is the same as any other boat with the same hull and same weight. Yes, electric is greener due to large scale efficient power generation but for the most part, our electric currently comes from non green generation. There are also losses of electrical power transmission that sometimes aren't factored into the percentages. It takes more power at the generation station to "push" it to the point of use. the farther you are from the generation the more the losses.

This boat can not be compared to a hybrid car. The large gains with a hybrid car are due to regenerative braking. With a non hybrid, kinetic energy build up in the cars movement is burnt up as waste heat via the brakes when stopping or burnt up counteracting gravity when going down hill. On a hybrid car, the electric motor becomes a generator that provides the braking and recharges the batteries with this normally wasted energy. A boat can't do this because basically the prop won't spin the motor (generator) enough when stopping (it's not a turbine like hydro electric generation) and boats don't go down hill like a car.

Now solar, I never said it can't be done but I don't feel it would be very practical to rely on totally. Due to the present high cost of solar per kwh I'd say a payback would be at least 10 years if used as the only means of battery charging. Epic hasn't published any specs on their drive system that I could find so for the time being lets use the electric Boesch boat. It's got a very efficient 3 phase variable frequency drive system in it plus the boat is about the same size and does get up well within boarding speed. It's drive (motor and frequency control) is capable of putting out 50kw of power. This 50kw is what it would take out of the batteries or 50kwh per hour of boating. When you see your solar panel friend, ask him how big of a solar panel array it would take plus the time required to replace this 50kwh removed after a 3 hour period of boating.

Brit Rider · Posted: Mar 08, 2009 4:39 am Post subject:

Does anyone know if it still rocks the 8.1 Merc engine? or has this been downsized?

wakeboarderdave1 · Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:25 am Post subject:

For anyone who wants to know how much this might cost.

jjaszkow · Posted: Mar 11, 2009 9:48 am Post subject:

My understanding is that they are using the gas engine to power a generator, and an electric motor to power the prop. This means that the gas engine can be run at optimal efficiency, and the electric motor can do the grunt work. This will burn less fuel, and I don't see the problem with that.

haugy touched on this concept earlier, and the link that wakeboarderdave1 seems to confirm it. I agree with haugy, it should be diesel.

ramos777 · Newbie Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 35

OK, but Epic's still look like a$$ Very Happy

Commodore · Ladies Man Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 11636

What about a smaller flow propeller in front of the main shaft. That turns as the boat moves to use that water flowing over the hull as a regenerative power source. Like a windmill in the water. Small, so it doesn't rob power by creating drag, but at least something to help sustain the charge longer so the boat can go longer without a charge, or without as much of a charge.

8122pbrainard, one way to really go "Green" with this thing is to have a specialized generator at the house for this purpose alone. Run it on bio-diesel, and you've got a truely "green" and efficient boat.

8122pbrainard · Outlaw Joined: 10 Feb 2009 Posts: 111 City: Northfield

Commodore · Ladies Man Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 11636

8122pbrainard, I understand your point, and your right. But my thoughts are something where it doesn't create drag, but doesn't waste that flowing energy either. Perhaps small wheels like you would get for a speedometer, with a little more size. Mount them just above the stern hull line so the flowing water makes them spin generating a small amount of power.

I know it wouldn't be anything substantial, but every little bit counts. Perhaps they could charge an emergency battery for if you get caught out in the water. Or powering the gauges. I don't know. But I think that something could be used.

boardordie · Posted: Mar 13, 2009 9:51 am Post subject:

How about harnessing the wind with a wind meter style generator? With only 10-15 miles an hour those meters are really spinning and can't create that much drag. What's one more thing hanging off the tower anyway! Laughing