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Partyb
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PostPosted: May 14, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Partyb wrote:
How about this Okie, go drive and text, get caught and then you can fight the ticket on Constitutional grounds.


That may happen, or any number of "infractions" in the vehicle codes may be something I fight in court someday. Hasn't happened yet, but never say never.

Partyb wrote:
My guess is you do nothing.


Your guess would be wrong.


Oh, I'm saying NEVER b/c you're full of baloney. You would much rather have debates over legal and political issues in a wakeboard forum then put forth your "ideas" where there is an audience and someone is actually listening.

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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually do both.
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jt09
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so okie - this bill is moving forward in california. it mandates immunization and does not allow for opting out by way of religious or personal choice. you are against this as well, yes?


Quote:
A bill that would make vaccines mandatory for nearly every child in California passed the state Senate on Thursday morning.

The controversial bill ensures that parents enrolling their children in California schools will be allowed to opt them out of immunizations only for medical reasons and may no longer cite religious or personal belief exemptions as reasons not to vaccinate. It passed 25-10 in the Senate, The Associated Press reported.

http://goo.gl/MXrGhY
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eeven73
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^That really is shocking.

Cynical me says get ready for a dramatic increase in Gluten Allergies or what ever meets the "medical criteria"

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chavez
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprised you haven't heard about it yet.

It actually doesn't require that every child get vaccinated, it just limits where they can go to school (if at all). If they are really a die-hard anti-vaxxer (i.e. a fugging moron) then they can just home school them kiddos and make them just a stupid as they are.

No matter what "medical" reason they cite, it will still make it more difficult to get an exemption, which is really the point of all this.

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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jt09, you sure you want to open that Pandora's box? lol
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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jason_ssr wrote:
I'm not a big text-and-drive guy, and the few times I have to read one in the car, my kids start shaming me (they are young and apparently this is a big safety topic at elementary schools). So, I don't really have a dog in this hunt. However, I am the guy who gets the shaft when these types of laws have unintentional side effects. I was driving to a office I had not been to before, and I was using the map directions on my phone. I usually just leave the phone in my lap and listen to the directions over my car speakers (bluetooth). Well, the car in front of me slammed on the brakes because we were entering a school zone. I tried to grab my sliding phone but only got a finger on it. So, I reached down and grabbed it off the floorboard as I crawl through the school zone. I put it back on map (I guess I closed it when I hit it trying to catch it) and laid it back on my leg. Red and blues and I get pulled over. Got a ticket for cellphone\text in school zone. I was neither on the phone, nor texting. The officer was not happy (not irate, but lectured me before I could get a word in). It was to the point I didnt feel like explaining would have helped my case.

While I think the spirit of the laws are good and with the best intentions, there are an infinite number of distractions in a vehicle. Heck If it was possible to quantify the number of deaths caused by dicking with the radio, I think the number would far surpass those of texting.


That's one of the other problems I have with these laws. In reality, they are mostly revenue generators and do very little to actually solve the problem.

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Partyb
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

That's one of the other problems I have with these laws. In reality, they are mostly revenue generators and do very little to actually solve the problem.[/quote]

Please provide citations and/or evidence for this statement. Thank you.

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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partyb wrote:


That's one of the other problems I have with these laws. In reality, they are mostly revenue generators and do very little to actually solve the problem.[/quote]

Please provide citations and/or evidence for this statement. Thank you.[/quote]

Have DUI'S been eliminated because of that law? No. Does the system make revenue off DUI violations? Yes. I rest my case. You can look at any local court system and see a mountain of evidence to back that up. You're welcome.

Edit: You can substitute speeding, distracted driving or any number of infractions for DUI in the above.

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Last edited by Okie Boarder on May 15, 2015 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chavez
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to ask a question I don't already know the answer to: how many DUI offenders can afford their own attorney vs how many have a PD assigned to them?

I know PD's make roughly between jack and squat, but they and whatever staff they have do cost money to operate.

Also, how many officers, jail staff, and operational staff does it take to process the average DUI?

The judge's cost, courtroom time cost, etc.?

That really doesn't seem like a great net revenue generator...

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eeven73
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ there is most definatly a DUI military industrial complex.

Does that excuse DUI, no.

The process to resolve a DUI is self serving at best. Its an inbred web of counselors that feeds itself, well.

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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DUI'S may not be huge revenue generators, but they are only one of many things we can get violations for that generate revenue, yet don't solve the problem.
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jt09
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PostPosted: May 15, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:
I'm going to ask a question I don't already know the answer to: how many DUI offenders can afford their own attorney vs how many have a PD assigned to them?

i tried to get a public defender for something i did in college - maybe a hot check? i don't even remember. whatever it was it was something i was technically guilty of but not really my fault, as it were. the prosecutor let me know that if i was found guilty, i'd have to pay the time for the lawyer as well.
my guess is it's something like that. think you gotta be a true poor to use the public defender legitimately.
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jason_ssr
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PostPosted: May 18, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jt09 wrote:
Laughing Laughing that's THE EXACT REASON FOR THE LAW!!! just because it's worded as "texting while driving"?? the law here in austin encompasses all hands-on mobile device use, but everyone still refers to it as the texting law. buy a mount for $20 and you won't be trying to run over little kids the next time someone stops short.


JT, Chavez -

Yeah, I've thought about a mount, but I just don't use it enough, so I never think about it. I would prob use it twice a year. The thing is, I would be equally distracted by a map whether its in my hand, on a phone mount, or in my dash (I do have Ford MyTouch big display NAV). So, why is running a map only distracting if its connected to my hand?

I think the law is designed to stop 16yr olds and soccer moms from driving and typing a novel to their buddies with two hands while looking in their lap. Ticketing the working stiff in unfamiliar territory holding a NAV device at a stand still in a school zone is just an unintended side effect. The funny thing was there was no school visible from the street. It was a block over behind a hedge you couldnt see through. It was marked though. I was probably dicking with the radio.

Honestly, its a catch 22. If we leave our laws vague, then lawyers get everyone off and behavior cannot be swayed. If we write eleventy billion laws to be specific enough to actually get to the sentencing phase, we are tossing freedom in a straight-jacket. Which is worse?

I think the founding fathers had all kinds of different views on government and religion, but the central running theme that brought them all together was the idea of freedom. How many steps back from an actual crime are we willing to go in an attempt to reduce the crime? Its a crime to injure someone or damage their property with a motor vehicle. What we are trying to reduce is car striking object. Making a fine for one particular type of distraction will not reduce occurrences of car striking object. Making an infinite number of laws for an infinite number of distractions will also not reduce occurrences of car striking object. What stops occurrences of cars striking objects is making the punishment for not paying attention behind the wheel a life changing event. Driving is a privilege that creates a world of wealth and opportunity, and citizens need to decide whether they want to throw it all away just so they can give their buddy an "LOL". IMO, you dont create laws to thwart behavior that may lead to a crime. You create punishments for crimes that make the public think hard about how they approach that activity.

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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 18, 2015 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
IMO, you dont create laws to thwart behavior that may lead to a crime. You create punishments for crimes that make the public think hard about how they approach that activity.


^This

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Partyb
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PostPosted: May 20, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Partyb wrote:


That's one of the other problems I have with these laws. In reality, they are mostly revenue generators and do very little to actually solve the problem.


Please provide citations and/or evidence for this statement. Thank you.[/quote]

Have DUI'S been eliminated because of that law? No. Does the system make revenue off DUI violations? Yes. I rest my case. You can look at any local court system and see a mountain of evidence to back that up. You're welcome.

Edit: You can substitute speeding, distracted driving or any number of infractions for DUI in the above.[/quote]

This response perfectly illustrates that you are completely full of BS Okie. I ask you to back up your BS and you come up with more generalizations and even generalizations about a totally different law then YOU posted about. Just b/c you find some topical article and then post it on an obscure half-dead forum does not make you politically active or involved in the solution. You are neither.

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PostPosted: May 20, 2015 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know when it's all said and done. Texting while driving is just plain wrong and dangerous. If the law results in less people driving and texting it's a start. People will start to change their habits, just like the DUI. When I was in school everyone still was drinking and driving. Now, the cases of drinking and driving are significantly less but it still happens. It's always going to happen just like texting and driving. In the future though it will become less of a problem because people will eventually get it. Takes time though...
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Okie Boarder
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PostPosted: May 21, 2015 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just b/c you find some topical article and then post it on an obscure half-dead forum does not make you politically active or involved in the solution.


Can't disagree there.

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PostPosted: May 21, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Quote:
IMO, you dont create laws to thwart behavior that may lead to a crime. You create punishments for crimes that make the public think hard about how they approach that activity.


^This


Um, this is exactly what I was saying about society's wishes becoming law. DUI/texting laws create specific punishments and ways of getting to them more easily when compared to your wish for just having criminal negligence cover it all. I laid that out for you pretty clearly (or so I thought) and you would buy it.

Then you turn around and say ^That ???

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PostPosted: May 21, 2015 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I read his statement aligns with what I was saying. IOW, don't come up with a new law against texting and driving to thwart the behavior. Create punishment (make the fine, jail time or consequence worse) that makes the already existing law have more teeth. Keep it under the negligence or already existing distracted driving law, and make it more painful, then let people make that decision for themselves whether the consequence is worth the risk.
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PostPosted: May 22, 2015 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only positive thing I see in these types of laws is the social engineering aspect. They get people talking about it, and this dialogue does more to change behavior then the actual rule of law. I grew up in a society that did not wear seat belts. When the seat belt laws came out, it began the discussion. I don't know anyone who has received a seat belt violation, but now for my children, seat belts are just part of automobile use. The law didn't change behavior, but the dialogue created by the law certainly has.
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jt09
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PostPosted: May 22, 2015 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jason_ssr wrote:
The law didn't change behavior,

disagree. i didn't start using my seatbelt all the time until i got a couple of tickets for not doing so.
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PostPosted: May 22, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm exactly the opposite; the law and its consequences has nothing to do with my decision to wear seatbelts.
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PostPosted: May 22, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I know one person who has received a seat belt citation.
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PostPosted: May 22, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

multiple! Laughing
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2015 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



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