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Pedophilia article

 
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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2015 6:54 am    Post subject: Pedophilia article Reply with quote

So, had an interesting discussion with an acquaintance of mine surrounding this article: http://joeforamerica.com/2015/03/margo-kaplan-pedophilia-is-not-a-crime/

Of course, that article is extremely slanted to the right and has all the typical arguments regarding sexual issues and the slippery slope.

Here is her original piece in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/opinion/pedophilia-a-disorder-not-a-crime.html?_r=0

What are your thoughts? Do you think this sort of thinking is good or bad? Are we headed down a slippery slope?

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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you have too much time on your hands and should post these threads in an appropriate sub-reddit as I'm confident you will get much more engagement. As for the article, isn't it simply another debate over punishment? Treatment/rehab vs. incarceration/vengeance? That's an old and lame debate.
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PostPosted: Apr 01, 2015 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure it totally aligns with that old argument. One aspect that caught my attention was the discussion of the stigma of someone admitting they are having these kinds of thoughts, and how that could drive them to try to suppress them instead of seeking out treatment.
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PostPosted: Apr 06, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd that that caught your attention, when I hear that pedophiles are concerned about the stigma of admitting they are pedophiles I say to myself "no stuff." Isn't that common sense?
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PostPosted: Apr 06, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it was one of the major points of the article. Do you think the stigma is a good thing? Don't you think we could be improving the situation by encouraging those thinking about the act to seek treatment without being chastised?
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PostPosted: Apr 06, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am drawing a line at pedophilia as things there are stigmas for reasons.

Someone please nuke this Bubb Rubbing thread.

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PostPosted: Apr 07, 2015 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Well it was one of the major points of the article. Do you think the stigma is a good thing? Don't you think we could be improving the situation by encouraging those thinking about the act to seek treatment without being chastised?


These posts of yours are so effing ridiculous I don't know where to start or end, and for some dumb reason I respond--I really must change jobs so that I have not time for this rubbish.

It's not an effing stigma OkieNut, it's against the law and all moral norms of society. Of course there is a stigma, just like there is a stigma for murdering someone. It does not have a place in a civilized society. It's not the same as doing drugs, mainly b/c when you sexually ASSAULT someone you are harming another person directly. When I smoke weed, nobody gives a hoot. Pedophiles have plenty of time to CHOOSE not to break the law, to choose to go to therapy (which is priviliged) and make other choices, they do not.

I think we should worry more about legalizing weed and probably a bunch of other drugs and implementing more rehab for THOSE "crimes," and legalizing prostitution too. Probably pedophilia is the last place to start.

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PostPosted: Apr 08, 2015 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once a person acts, they have broken the law, but this article is more about the thought. The point she was trying to make about the stigma was more along the lines of those thoughts. I see some validity to the idea she presented, that if we don't have such a stigma about the thoughts and encourage people to get treatment, without fear of repercussions, we could see an improvement in the situation.

As she noted, it may not be as much of a choice as we think, according to some recent research. The act can certainly be a choice, but the thoughts might not.

If we could improve the situation in this way, you're still against it?

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PostPosted: Apr 08, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother is a child psychologist and he worked in a youth detention center for sexual offenses during college. His anecdotal experience shows there is a high percentage of offenses by previous victims. Most of the studies he's read will back that up, as well. He has also noted that the stigma of someone admitting to the thoughts is huge and it prevents many from seeking treatment, which can lead to problems later.
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PostPosted: Apr 10, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie, go work on campaign finance if you actually want to do something besides BS. This is a waste of everyones time, esp. where you chose to hold these forums.
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PostPosted: Apr 10, 2015 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partyb wrote:
Okie, go work on campaign finance if you actually want to do something besides BS. This is a waste of everyones time, esp. where you chose to hold these forums.


Yes, because there's too much traffic on this forum and Partyb speaks for all of us. No BSing or time wasting allowed here. Rolling Eyes

I would honestly rather click on Okie Boarder's threads and decide not to read them if they're longer than 3 lines than read Partyb's condescending remarks and demands to follow his girlfriend on social media.
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you COULD just look at the pics and not actually follow her, right?
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohsix wrote:
Partyb wrote:
Okie, go work on campaign finance if you actually want to do something besides BS. This is a waste of everyones time, esp. where you chose to hold these forums.


Yes, because there's too much traffic on this forum and Partyb speaks for all of us. No BSing or time wasting allowed here. Rolling Eyes

I would honestly rather click on Okie Boarder's threads and decide not to read them if they're longer than 3 lines than read Partyb's condescending remarks and demands to follow his girlfriend on social media.


So go ahead. Just like you, I can post anything I want in response to Okie Boarders thread--you ain't gotta agree, but I have the same right to post as you do.

As for "demands" to follow my gf on social media...ummmm I think her FB page is mentioned in my signature, not really a "demand," and other than that I just checked...the only other place I mentioned her was in the hot chick thread--you know where everybody posts pictures they stole from the internet like it's 2003 and nobody ever heard of Reddit or google images--and 3/2/2015 I said "nice gif" (no gf reference), Aug/2014 I posted a pic of her from a TV show, and April/2014 I actually posted more of a "hot girl" pic--that was literally a year ago. I apologize if my demands are excessive.

Meanwhile, if you look at Okie's threads, numerous other people have commented that they are less than productive, not quite as obnoxious as my responses of course. But you know if he posts something like "Do you think the stigma (of being a pedophile) is a good thing?" then he gets whatever tongue lashing he gets and deserves it. See Eeven73's comments implying agreement. At least I contributed to the OP's topic and did not just decide to comment my personal distaste to someone's OPINION.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta agree with ohsix here.

If nobody responds to some of Okie's threads then fine. He'll either stop posting as many threads or people will just continue along with their day. Doesn't really affect anything. On the other hand, the internet bitterness and bickering is not fun for anyone and discouraging active members from posting on a declining message board doesn't seem like a smart way to keep it alive.

If I'm going to contribute something to the OP: I skimmed the NYT article and think it's an interesting perspective. It would definitely suck to be attracted to something/someone that is completely taboo and to have to fight that constantly. But I still have no sympathy for a child molester.

Thinking big picture, I find the trend toward acceptance and being nice to other to be interesting looking forward. Over the last several hundred years, we have moved toward acceptance...think immigrants (Irish/Jews), women (suffrage/equal rights), Blacks (civil rights), homosexuals (gay rights), etc. You have to assume this trend will continue. Who will be the next group to fight for their rights/gain acceptance? Personally, I think a time will come when western society will go vegetarian (animal rights). I love meat but I think at some point people will start feeling bad enough for the poor innocent cows that have to die where we stop killing animals for food. Who is to say this trend doesn't continue even more and in 100-200 years society starts feeling bad for pedophiles and accepting them?

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I skimmed the NYT article and think it's an interesting perspective. It would definitely suck to be attracted to something/someone that is completely taboo and to have to fight that constantly. But I still have no sympathy for a child molester.


That was what kind of ran through my mind when reading it. I know that, from my brother's experiences, it is a mental issue that is better dealt with than to be kept in the closet. Maybe if it was dealt with more, we COULD actually start to reduce the occurrences.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read either link in the OP and I really don't care to argue pedophilia. In fact, I don't bother reading the quoted articles or links in 90+% of the Okie Boarder threads, but I respect others' "right" to post here and open things for discussion even if I don't care to discuss the subject.

There is probably a better forum for just about every thread here, but I don't see why we need to redirect all those questions and discussions. I don't wakeboard anymore, but I feel like I "e-know" a lot of the posters on this forum, so I enjoy the discussions that happen here even though there's almost always a better place for the OP's to ask their questions or engage in discussion.

I check out reddit occasionally, but I don't think there's any sense of community there. I don't remember anyone's username or anything unique to a certain username. I don't even know if I've ever recognized the same username twice. Reddit's a big, cool, e-place which caters to tons of interests, but I don't see a reason to redirect traffic away from this site to it or others.
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal "problem" with Okie's posts I believe stem from only what I can describe as bewilderment. YES, this is 'non-wakeboarding'; most forums have a 'non-xyz' section, a catch-all. No problem. This is where we put the "hot chick thread" the "school me on ABC', the announcements (look who got engaged!). Okie however continually posts some sort of political, social, or whatever debate engaging article or question. I'm bewildered b/c IF he is truly interested in these topics why does he not post somewhere where such debate is encouraged and desired? Personally, I'm in a bubble man, I don't care about this stuff...I worry about me and mine (my friends, my family, my stuff), I don't care to concern myself with how society deals with pedophiles. However, I'm glad SOMEONE does care about these things, someone should! And if that's Okie, then FINE, but for lords sake, actually DO something bro, posting here ain't doing nothing. If you want to be an activist, go activate--otherwise you are just throwing words on the internet and wasting bandwidth (again not that i care about wb.com's bandwidth) but it just makes no sense to me...bewildered!

I mention reddit b/c although it's chock FULL of porn, bad stuff, funny stuff, and dumbarse stuff, they also have legit subs where smart people gather and talk sensibly. I just think IF okie is serious about these issues, he should take them seriously and not continually just post them here for a bunch of former wb'ers.

Perhaps I should not be so bewildered, or I should take the stance that I don't care about the bewilderment as I have taken the stance that I don't care about the stigma surrounding pedophiles (ITS NOT A STIGMA, ITS ILLEGAL), but alas, it's the internet, and I'm often bored at work.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
as I have taken the stance that I don't care about the stigma surrounding pedophiles (ITS NOT A STIGMA, ITS ILLEGAL)


That's exactly one of the points she was making in the article and how most people feel, pondering if it is actually making the problem worse instead of better. It seems that is the more common response when this subject is brought up. It's exactly what I saw as a reaction from my acquaintance and on other online discussions.

Also, keep in mind that the stigma being looked at here isn't with a person acting on the thoughts, but having them and being ashamed...so ashamed they don't dare tell anyone, let alone seek out help they may desperately need.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I didn't plan on getting into a pedophilia discussion, but I guess I am.

I have never considered myself a bigot, but I did not always sympathize with the gays. That is until, my grandmother asked me "Why would anyone choose to be gay?" That really changed my perspective. Now, I don't advocate for gay rights, but I'd vote for anything that gives them equal rights to heteros. I don't have an interest in homosexuality, but as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, why do we try to legislate against it?

Just like homosexuality, I can't imagine anyone set out to become a pedophile. I think it's probably something you're born with or something that subconsciously develops. However, I think it's easy to make the argument that the act of pedophilia creates victims whereas homosexuality does not. Just like homosexuality, I don't think that people can be counseled out of being a pedophile. I think it's just a behavior that has to be suppressed and legislated for the protection of the potential victims.

There have been times in my life where I've had the urge to kill people because of something they've done to me. I think that's simply called extreme anger, but if it had a distinct name such as pedophilia, I would be guilty of having had those urges in my life. Now, the urge has never been strong enough that I made any kind of plans or followed up with any type of action. I don't know if that's because of my morals or that killing or harming humans is illegal, but I believe a lot people have suppressed the urge to harm or kill someone simply because it's illegal and not socially acceptable. Occasionally, people do act on their urge to harm or kill and there is legislation in place to punish those people. I don't believe that you can counsel a person out of ever wanting to harm or kill another human if they have that urge, but making it illegal and socially unacceptable helps prevent that behavior. I think that's all we can do about pedophilia.
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thinking big picture, I find the trend toward acceptance and being nice to other to be interesting looking forward. Over the last several hundred years, we have moved toward acceptance...think immigrants (Irish/Jews), women (suffrage/equal rights), Blacks (civil rights), homosexuals (gay rights), etc. You have to assume this trend will continue. Who will be the next group to fight for their rights/gain acceptance? Personally, I think a time will come when western society will go vegetarian (animal rights). I love meat but I think at some point people will start feeling bad enough for the poor innocent cows that have to die where we stop killing animals for food. Who is to say this trend doesn't continue even more and in 100-200 years society starts feeling bad for pedophiles and accepting them?


Just shoot me in the Bubb Rubbing head.

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
Quote:
Thinking big picture, I find the trend toward acceptance and being nice to other to be interesting looking forward. Over the last several hundred years, we have moved toward acceptance...think immigrants (Irish/Jews), women (suffrage/equal rights), Blacks (civil rights), homosexuals (gay rights), etc. You have to assume this trend will continue. Who will be the next group to fight for their rights/gain acceptance? Personally, I think a time will come when western society will go vegetarian (animal rights). I love meat but I think at some point people will start feeling bad enough for the poor innocent cows that have to die where we stop killing animals for food. Who is to say this trend doesn't continue even more and in 100-200 years society starts feeling bad for pedophiles and accepting them?


Just shoot me in the Bubb Rubbing head.


Holy cow--shoot someone in the head. Did they just compare homosexuality, being a female or black to pedophilia?

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol@ this thread. ironically, what otherwise would have just been a 1 post thread that fell to the bottom of the stack is now headed for page 2

Partyb wrote:
Did they just compare homosexuality, being a female or black to pedophilia?

Yea, makes sense if you think about it, teh gays can't help liking mens, and pedos can't help liking little boys... Arrow Arrow

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partyb, I believe I'm the "they" in question. And no, I didn't. I'm looking objectively at macro-level social trends. If you or eeven73 would like to make a different argument or critique mine, I'm all ears.

To everyone: Who or what do you foresee being the next gay rights movement?
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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know what the next forced acceptance campaign will be.

If its pedophiles, shoot me in the head.

Call me a small minded bigot if you want. Sex with children isnt an equivalent to a persons race, gender, or religion. I dismiss that premise on principal. In fact suggesting it is a stark example of PC gone way wrong.

Let me guess you're a recent college grad, right?

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PostPosted: Apr 13, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just like homosexuality, I don't think that people can be counseled out of being a pedophile. I think it's just a behavior that has to be suppressed and legislated for the protection of the potential victims.


But, what if this is a behavior that can be changed through counseling? I know that experience my brother has had and others in the psych field, there are many cycles of abusive behavior that can be broken through counseling. Are we doing society a disservice by the stigma we place on these thoughts and not encouraging people to come forward to seek help?

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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
But, what if this is a behavior that can be changed through counseling? I know that experience my brother has had and others in the psych field, there are many cycles of abusive behavior that can be broken through counseling. Are we doing society a disservice by the stigma we place on these thoughts and not encouraging people to come forward to seek help?


I don't think it is a behavior that can be changed by counseling, but if an affected person believes it can, what's stopping them from seeking psych help?

Are we doing society a disservice by the stigma we place on serial killers? Rapists? Con artists? Same as pedophiles, I say no.
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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think it is a behavior that can be changed by counseling, but if an affected person believes it can, what's stopping them from seeking psych help?


I agree with the point she made in the article about this. I think what is holding them back is the stigma. If they admit to these thoughts and seek counseling, it could ruin their life. Think of what would happen as far as their job, family, friends, etc.

Quote:
Are we doing society a disservice by the stigma we place on serial killers? Rapists? Con artists? Same as pedophiles, I say no.


The difference I see there is those folks have already acted on their thoughts and committed a crime.

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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
I agree with the point she made in the article about this. I think what is holding them back is the stigma. If they admit to these thoughts and seek counseling, it could ruin their life. Think of what would happen as far as their job, family, friends, etc.

The difference I see there is those folks have already acted on their thoughts and committed a crime.


The relationship between a client and counselor is as confidential as the client wants it to be. By seeking counseling, a person does not have to make public their thoughts or perceived problems.

When does a pedophile become a pedophile? After committing an illegal act or just having thoughts of illegal acts? If a person has illegal thoughts, whether it be murder, rape, pedophilia, or whatever, I don't think they're a problem to society. I wouldn't consider a person a pedophile until they've committed an illegal act.

Have you ever seen a very attractive woman, whether in person or on a screen, and had sexual thoughts? I know you're a married man and I'm guessing your wife wouldn't be cool with you having other sexual relationships, but do you need to confess those thoughts to your wife or seek psychiatric help? I'd answer yes to the first question and hell no to the second.
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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The relationship between a client and counselor is as confidential as the client wants it to be. By seeking counseling, a person does not have to make public their thoughts or perceived problems.


Not exactly true; a counselor can interpret the information shared as a Tarasoff case. That would allow the counselor to break confidentiality.

Quote:
When does a pedophile become a pedophile? After committing an illegal act or just having thoughts of illegal acts? If a person has illegal thoughts, whether it be murder, rape, pedophilia, or whatever, I don't think they're a problem to society. I wouldn't consider a person a pedophile until they've committed an illegal act.


I would agree and that is exactly what the article is pointing out, but it is also not universally viewed that way by society. Even the thoughts are demonized and the point is that maybe they shouldn't be.

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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder, so what exactly is your problem with the way pedophilia is currently handled? If someone is planning to commit a crime and a counselor or therapist can prevent harm to a person I think they have a duty to protect the potential victim or alert authorities. They can decide how much detail the potential victim or authorities need to prevent the crime.

I don't think we should offer immunity for criminals who have committed crimes and later feel bad and seek help. I also don't think we should become socially complacent with any mental disorder that causes harm to others.

If a pedophile has committed a crime and feels remorse to the point he/she seeks professional help and confesses his/her crime, I think that should be accounted for in his/her punishment.

I don't see a slippery slope between being homosexual and being a pedophile. To me, there's a pretty clear line between harming someone and something consenting adults do.
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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see the point in handling the situation before it is an act of pedophilia as something we can improve on. That's the area where I have a "problem". Like the author of the article suggests, maybe there are ways to eliminate the stigma of the thoughts and the concerns about someone seeking counseling that can result in a reduction in the actual acts and the harm to children.

The slippery slope I referred to in my OP was a different aspect of the whole thing, although it was sort of related. The acquaintance I was discussing this with was trying to point out that the thinking of the author of this article, if enacted in our society, would result in the slippery slope of society allowing the act of pedophilia as being acceptable.

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