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Detroit water crisis
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chavez
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PostPosted: Jul 22, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I just looked at a month with zero sprinkler or external use - January. We still used about 9000 gallons of water.
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PostPosted: Jul 22, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't look for a few years, but I know before kids the wife and I would never use the 400(2800ish gallons) cuft base. I do know that I pay alot more than 17.50 for water though.

In soggy Oregon no less Evil or Very Mad

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chavez
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PostPosted: Jul 22, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73, water bill for the last month was 56$

In the winter it drops to below $30. But we have a fixed "service cost" of $20.10/mo before they get in to the metered usage.

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jul 22, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What happens if they use 3000 gallons and just decide not to pay? Then what? Do you disconnect them or? What's the incentive for anyone to conserve water if there is no penalty for not doing so?


That's the thing.. I don't know. If you shut it off, you run the risk of creating a public health epidemic... spread of disease past the boundaries of just those not getting water any longer.

Which is what drives me towards just making it completely paid by taxes. Like roads and bridges (sigh.. which are also in sad shape... this is embarasing.)

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why are roads and bridges in sad shape?

1. Because there isn't enough money.

2. The money has been misspent.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone is debating that.

However, I think it is very unreasonable to imply that there are problems with private entities running everything as well.

This is always going to be a fundamental difference between you and I in most of our discussions.

However, why is it that I go to other countries where roads and bridges are completely, 100% under government control and they are in pristine shape? What is it about some other cultures that results in so much less of the waste and mismanagement that Americans seem to experience?


I get back from some parts of europe, and driving home I am embarrassed to see signs bent over, guardrails in disrepair, garbage on the side of the road, road markings and paint faded, etc.

How do these socialized countries manage to do it and we can't? What's the different factor here?

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have less drivers and less assholes? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my experience in Europe has been quite different than yours.

I have been to Ireland, England, Germany, and Italy. It seems to me to be a mixed bag of better and worse with the US winning its share in alot of places in this country.

I don't disagree that there are problems with Private Corps. My position stems from the fact they do not have the authority to take my money and squander it. There is the profit motive and accountability, if they don't do the job they are not around for long.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the original topic I pay $53 per month for 400cuft. WTF.

You win free water for everyone, I say. Laughing

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience most of these high water bills are from leaks or just don't care if they left the faucet on. I have had a rent house before where I walked on the side of the house and it was REALLY wet, standing water ect. I noticed the outside faucet was on. I told them about it and they said the kids were playing with the sprinklers last week and they forgot to turn it off. I reminded them they they were responsible to pay the water bill. The look on their face was priceless and they got mad at me for how much money it was going to cost them.

The bottom line is that the bottom 5%-10% of the population that is complete trash (IMO) does not care about waste/ overuse if they are getting something for "free". If they cannot pay the water bill they should give out water in gallon containers at the food stamp place.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

53 is my base rate. 1 gal or 400 cuft
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chavez
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take my cost numbers with a grain of salt. Here in Roseville we have our own water, garbage, sewer, and electric utility. We even have a phone company (not muni owned).

I know other than electric these are municipal services, but most places have these services shared with other areas. Roseville's is Roseville's. This keeps most costs in check for us.


vette74, we have no leaks, no toilets that constantly run, and again, water/energy efficient appliances. It most certainly due to our outside watering needs, and I have that under control. I can only imagine what this all looks like for someone who pays no attention to it... Shocked

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine has increased in the last 5 years though from $35 to $53 due to "system improvement charges"
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over 30,000 gallons of water in a month, no wonder there is a shortage in Cali. I used to feel bad for californians, now just realize it is being wasted. You MUST have a problem you don't know about.

I have a 3 bath house, 2 adults and 1 child living in it. Mostly energy star or low flow appliances. I wash 3 cars once a week and water my lawn on occasion. from 4/1/2014 to 6/30/2014 i used 10,000 gallons of water which will cost me $86.00

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and water my lawn on occasion


This is probably the difference. My parents live in the High Desert of SoCal and to have a nice lawn/garden, it takes a lot of watering. Where chavez is may not be as bad, but most of CA is arid and if you want your yard to look "pretty" it needs lots of water.

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heard that las vegas, or some town/county somewhere pays residents to NOT water their lawns and instead to plant native species.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

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chavez
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broccoli B, I'm telling ya, I don't. I've repaired all of the screw ups the builder made to the house. The biggest issue was a buried broken sprinkler pipe (because they used cheap sch 120 instead of sch 40 pipe). I've spent a lot of time and effort correcting these errors, and now have no leaks or breaks anywhere.

Right now, my sprinkler's automated adjustment has it ramped up to 100%, which is absolutely the reason for the high use. That will ratchet down to next to nothing in the fall and winter.

The only thing I could do currently is drop the schedule below what is recommended for the area. I still might do that and just keep a close eye on the lawn to see when it starts to suffer.

In the end, I have less lawn now, and a new pool, and my usage is still down 20% overall from last year (to this point in the year).



Thinking more about it: Other factors that went into that high usage month are guests... we had house guests for half of that month (so 2 extra showers, tons of extra dishes, many extra loads of laundry, etc).


okie, when I was in NC last summer, I asked the friend I was staying with how many sprinklers it took to water their 1ac yard (all grass). I was floored when I heard "none". Here, that 1ac all grass yard would take a metric sh*t-ton of water to keep green. And metric sh*t-ton is probably being kind.


Neognosis, we have the "cash for grass" program here too. My mother used it to re-do their front yard a couple of years ago. My wife doesn't care for that kind of yard, so it's out for us. So I focus on efficiency whenever possible. It's why I spent a huge amount of time and effort and money re-doing my entire irrigation system over the winter.

When we lived in vegas we had lawn in the front, despite my urging to not. My in-laws who still live there have zero lawn, and only native outdoor plants.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez,

Yeah, I was blown away the first time I went to the Midwest and was old enough to understand that they don't irrigate there corn the way we have to in Oregon. They rely on Thunderstorms. Even in Oregon we will go 8-12 weeks in July, Aug and Sept without any rain. Calender hits November, hold on to your but.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
I was blown away the first time I went to the Midwest and was old enough to understand that they don't irrigate there corn the way we have to in Oregon. They rely on Thunderstorms.


they all irrigate now. no one wants to pay taxes on all the money they're making. Laughing Embarassed Confused
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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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okie, when I was in NC last summer, I asked the friend I was staying with how many sprinklers it took to water their 1ac yard (all grass). I was floored when I heard "none". Here, that 1ac all grass yard would take a metric sh*t-ton of water to keep green. And metric sh*t-ton is probably being kind.


It is similar here. When we first moved here, we built a house near Tulsa and had automatic sprinklers put in. We thought that's pretty normal coming from CA, but it really isn't much here. If you live out in rural areas, most people don't water at all and the natural grasses just grow. It isn't a manicured fescue or kentucky blue type of lawn, but it looks fine. We have lots of bermuda grass here and that stuff is really drought tolerant. I've watered my lawns twice this whole year so far.

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PostPosted: Jul 23, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh... here in New York, I water my lawn exactly never.
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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What is it about some other cultures that results in so much less of the waste and mismanagement that Americans seem to experience?


Our tollerance for failing at being a part of society is not shared by many other cultures.

The laziness here is off the charts.

Those people in Detroit are not being denied clean water. The water controller is simply refusing to port it to their location for free. Now they are going to have to get off the couch and go to the water. Going without water will kill you. Going without it being pumped into your house will not. By that logic, everyones scuba gear should be paid for by tax money.

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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should all go in a big bucket and everyone should take what they need Very Happy
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:
And I just looked at a month with zero sprinkler or external use - January. We still used about 9000 gallons of water.


Were your plumbing repairs before or after January? If before, then this is still too high and makes me suspect a leak somewhere else... if you are able to read your house water meter, I would check it before you go to sleep, and then check it in the morning. Make sure not to use water through the night. See if the usage rises.
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scuba gear... that's not even remotely related to the logic, and it would seem to indicate that you either dont' understand the opposite viewpoint, or you are just putting random words together.

Do, you think that the City of Detroit will let a crowd of people with plastic bottles into their water treatment plants to dip into the water with some buckets to carry home?


I'm curious as to whether they can do this. Does anyone know if the city of detroit has a water plant with a spigot on the outside that you can show up to and fill up some buckets? Maybe you can. I have a feeling that there's issues with transportation to the treatment plant and whatnot, and I also suspect that you can't just show up and fill some buckets up for free either.

I suspect that what you wrote is ridiculous.

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chavez
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faust, after. The pool install had to be completed before I made the external repairs. Pool was completed at the end of December. Yard was put back together and all pipes repaired in January and February. There are no issues inside, those were repaired when we moved in.

It is not too high due to leaks. You guys just aren't accustomed to seeing such use due to landscaping.

And you tell my pregnant wife not to use the bathroom during the night. That will go over well! Laughing

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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its pretty irresponsible to use that much water for landscaping imo, especially with all the drought throughout the country. But, I have read that people are getting fined for not watering enough in CA...pretty strange state
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgriffith wrote:
Its pretty irresponsible to use that much water for landscaping


agreed. this summer we have lots more green lawns as we've had way more rain, and much more consistent rain. usually, most people let them go brown in the summer. code compliance will come get your ass for a green lawn in most areas - it's obvious who is using more than allowed.

if i had a lawn to water, and an in-ground irrigation system, this is when i could water:

Watering Day: Thursday
Watering Times:
[From: 12:00 AM To: 4:59 AM] and/or
[From: 7:00 PM To: 11:59 PM]

they need to ban all st. augustine grass for new development and incent the hell out of xeriscape.
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PostPosted: Jul 24, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Left Coast is a bastion of liberal insanity so absurd you really have to live here not to think some of the nonsense isn't a practical joke.

Example.

Take a guess what the fine is in Tigard, Or for the unpermitted removal of an average size Douglas fir tree(state tree there are millions of them) is?

A.)$250

B.)$25

C.)$2,500

D.) $25,000

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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irresponsible... LO freaking L.

Yeah that's me. The one who has invested tons of time, money, and effort in to getting my landscape setup correct.

Now, please imagine if you will, that I am one of the few who actually has dialed in his sprinklers so they don't overspray, who has a "smart" timer, who uses higher efficiency heads, who waters at the correct time of day, and who waters according to the local district's schedule. We also do not wash our cars at home, have high efficiency appliances, low flow toilets, low flow showerheads, aerated faucets, and no leaks.

Then think about my neighbors. Who water at 4pm at peak heat. Who don't pay attention to their sprinkler that is just spraying the street and sidewalks. Who let their sprinklers run for 30 minutes at a time. Who still go out and use a hose to water their hotspots instead of adjusting their heads. And, who have water flowing at all times of day from who knows where, enough to cause their downhill neighbor to have a constant runoff issue and discolored the sidewalk in front of their house.

Yes, I am the irresponsible one. Laughing

eeven73, I guess. I mean Tigard, OR might be one thing, but where I am in Placer (and in a large chunks of CA, honestly), it's hard core red. We still have a lot of state level enviro-related laws, but locally (city, county) the codes are not bastion of "liberal" insanity by any means.

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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just because they are worse, doesn't make what you're doing good. i don't blame you - you're doing what is allowed. but 1/3 of the country is in a desperate drought and should be under much more severe restrictions than they are.
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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it will get so bad that New York State will ship you water in railroad tankers for a huge fee! We have PLENTY.
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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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they need to ban all st. augustine grass for new development and incent the hell out of xeriscape.


To me, xeriscape is the way to go.

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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jt09, if I was doing what is "allowed" my use would be much higher. Sad as that may be. What I am doing is abiding by suggested guidelines. These are not hard and fast rules.

This is the best guide around for CA: http://anrcatalog.ucdavis.edu/pdf/8044.pdf


The $1/sq they are offering under "Cash for Grass" to swap to xeriscape is not enough, IMO. You can barely do bark for that, and fuggetaboutit if you are paying someone to do it. They did give me a rebate equal to what my smart timer cost ($175), so there's that.

We don't have St Aug here. My lawn is a mix of Tall Fescue and Rye (both drought/heat tolerant).


Looking back, I should have spent even more $ and gone with an underground style system like they use in stadiums. Would have tripled or quadrupled the cost of the system upgrade, but would have cut water use by half or more. I would be able to recoup those costs in a decade or so. Neutral

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PostPosted: Jul 25, 2014 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fescue is heat and drought tollerant? Not in my experience, not if you want it to stay green

I guess just keep watering too much until it dries up, good luck.

I have st augustine in the shade and bermuda in the sun, the st aug looks great, even this late into the summer. The bermuda not so much, despite being a drought tollerant grass. I dont water my lawn at all.
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