Detroit water crisis

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

You guys hear about this:

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/10/330325100/detroit-shuts-off-water-as-it-tries-to-collect-millions-in-overdue-bills

NPRs report seems pretty unbiased compared to some of the stuff I've been hearing.

But the gist of it is that the city is turning the water off on a large number of people who haven't paid their bills.

It seems to me that this could cause a public health crisis. The more I think about it, I conclude that since water is a necessity, that clean water is necessary to stay alive and to stop the spread of water borne disease, and that having water to clean and bath with is also necessary for the public health... wouldn't you think that water should be paid for with taxes?

goofyboy · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 4:35 am Post subject:

No, taxes should not pay for water. I am not going to pay for you to water your lawn / fill your pool / wash your car.

ohsix · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 5:25 am Post subject:

I would say water should be a gov't provided service before retirement and healthcare, but the majority of Americans must disagree with me.

Taxpayers don't need to pay for their neighbors to wash their cars and fill their pools, so they could allow so many gallons for free, then charge a high rate for "discretionary" water use. The city I live in provides 2,000 gallons of water and sewer service for $17.50 per month, the next 8,000 gallons are billed at $4.95/TGAL, the next 15,000 gallons at $6.50/TGAL, then the next tier is $8.75/TGAL. Last year when we had serious water shortage, those rates were tripled after 10,000 gallons.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

that's a good idea, ohsix.

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 7:00 am Post subject:

it is essentially free at $17.50/2000 gallons, or whatever Detroit pays.

From what I have read this is a bunch of deadbeats that just want a free ride.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/19/the-terrible-choices-detroit-confronts-as-it-cuts-off-water-to-its-own-residents/

"As the Detroit Free Press editorialized, the utility has long tolerated unpaid bills, creating a "culture of nonpayment."

"This suggests, the department argues, that plenty of residents can afford to pay — they've just chosen not to. And, as a result, water rates have risen for customers who pay responsibly to help cover the costs of their neighbors who do not."

ohsix · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 7:05 am Post subject:

I would think that any mandate of water supply would be in the hands of each water supplier. Many people live on water wells and septic tanks, would the gov't provide clean water to anyone anywhere?

What would you do if someone used more than their free allowance of water but refused to pay their bill, could you cut them off then?

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 7:59 am Post subject:

I refuse to believe we live in a country where anything more than the smallest minority of truly horribly off people can't afford $17.50 per month for Water and Sewer. Can it really be that there isn't $17.50 to be made somewhere, somehow in the span of 30 days. Bubb Rubb I imagine that much could be found in change on the side of the road, let alone the 10cent deposit michigan has for bottles and cans.

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

and that is a perfect illustration of the disconnect between the haves and have nots in this country.

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 8:40 am Post subject:

Did Cameraboy hack your account?

Don't try and paint me with the Mitt Romney brush.

Every article I have read on this issue has made the point that the majority of accounts get paid or put on a plan when they are shut off. This is a case of the municipality service being to leanient for years, now they are reaping what they sow. Frankly, it is sad to me this is passed off as a "human rights" issue and not a personal accountability issue.

jgriffith · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 8:41 am Post subject:

jt09, so the "haves" are the people that can afford $17.50 a month for water? Wow, I guess 99.99% of the country has made it!

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 8:43 am Post subject:

$17.50 per month to provide water AND take away your crap.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Let's forget, for a moment, the particulars of the detroit water crisis.

Because water is essential to the public health, which, yes, effects the "haves" just as much when the excrement starts piling up and people are spreading dysentery... or when other very containable diseases are spreading because people aren't bathing, or when they do decide to poop and bathe in the lake or public water supply....

isn't it in everyone's interest to make water, like roads and bridges, something we all pay for? And like Ohsix said, maybe just to the extent that water is required to keep the public healthy.

17.50 for water
100 for groceries?
Fuel if you have someplace to go to earn that money and buy those groceries?
insurance
electric utility
gas utility
rent

those are just the very basics.

Now, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people just figured that they didn't have to pay because historically nothing happened, but 17.50 a month, when you don't have a job and have run out of unemployment, is significant.

However, my point stands and really has not been answered: since clean water is essential for public health, and public health effects everyone, and could destroy an already ill economy, why isn't it in everyone's best interest to provide clean water as part of a public service?

Even the ancient romans knew that providing clean water was one of the fastest ways to placate a rebellious population and also protect themselves from the spread of filth and disease....

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 9:35 am Post subject:

IMPO it has been answered by ohsix's post.

I have added that at $17.50 it essentially is free and also certainly is subsidized by the tax base in general, in other words the service value is beyond the cost.

Are you asking me to believe the vast majority, 99.99%, of people can't be asked/bothered to pay $17.50 for water and sewer?

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

again, if you don't understand how hard it is for some people to come up w/ $17.50 every month, then you shouldn't even be discussing it. you simply have no concept of what it's like to be that poor.

and where the f* are you getting that the vast majority of people can't pay that? the vast majority of people in detroit can pay for their water just fine. the problem is the tiny fraction who can't has grown substantially. math, how does it work?

detroit city pop: 680k+
detroit metro: 4m+
accounts shut off for non-payment: 17k

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

No, I'm asking you to consider that something that so obviously serves the public good, including you, should be a public work.

Especially since the lack of that public work could wreck the entire society.

You seriously don't understand how 17.50 is a significant amount of money to some people?

It's not like heat, where if someone can't afford to keep their heat on, they could freeze to death. I don't know if that bothers you or not. But the potential spread of dysentery or any other number of hygiene related or water borne illnesses should, because that could affect you and your family directly.

Do you propose a solution? It appears that detroit might have a handle on this situation with working with people on their bills and such, but what if they still don't pay? what do you do then? Nothing? That cuts off your own nose, doesn't it?

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Most utilities have upper tier users (commercial, industrial, ect...) subsidize lower tier users and fund programs for low income users. I'm guessing this is far more complex than the article illustrates.

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject:

Neognosis,

And I am telling you IT IS a public work. Municipal water systems are run by the , you guessed it, municipality. This isn't a mega corporation Bubb Rubbing people out of water. It is a subsidized PUBLIC WORK.

jt09,

I didn't say the vast majority can't afford 17.50. I asked Neo if that is what he wanted me to believe. Reading Comprehension, how does it work?

RampageWake · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject:

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject:

And for those people there are programs.

RampageWake · Posted: Jul 21, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject:

PS - we should donate Detroit to Canaduh and take the writeoff. win/win

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

I totally get the public health side of it and the fact that $17.50 is hard for people to come up with if they are truly poor. How many in Detroit are truly falling into the poor category? If it is a majority of the folks not paying, can the water pricing scheme for those that can afford it be changed so it helps those folks out?

I'm big on smaller government, less subsidies and people taking care of themselves (along with friends and neighbors helping out). But, clean water is a pretty basic necessity and it does ensure a level of public health that is beneficial.

I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for my water to help those truly in need.

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 22, 2014 7:55 am Post subject:

Okie Boarder,

There already is a scheme to help those in need and you do pay a little more to support it. Mad

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I liked Ohsix's idea that you have to pay additionally on a sliding scale if you use over a certain number of gallons. So, water for bathing, drinking, cooking would be YES, YES, I'LL SAY IT....an entitlement, and anything over that you would have to pay for... like washing your car, filling your pool, watering the garden.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

That's the way it is in So Cal where my parents live. It's not really sliding scale, but just tiers. They've calculated some sort of median usage for a household and that becomes their benchmark.

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

RampageWake · Posted: Jul 22, 2014 9:56 am Post subject:

jgriffith · Posted: Jul 22, 2014 11:47 am Post subject:

jt09, wow do you make a strong effort to conserve water? That is very low usage

My water is free...until it runs out one day

jt09 · Ladies Man Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 22083 City: Austin

i'm only one person w/ no yard. showers, toilet, drinking/cooking water for me and my 2 dogs. maybe a couple of gallons a month for plants and fish tank.

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

jt09, how in the hell do you use so little water? I'm using an order of magnitude more than that!

For reference, the highest consumption month of the year (right now) we just got the number. We used roughly 4300cuft of water or... wait for it..

32164 GALLONS

My lawn is automatic (timing is adjusted by needs based on rain, temp, and humidity) and sprinklers are dialed in (almost zero overspray). My appliances (dishwasher/clothes washer) are energy star. My toilets and showers are low flow.

Holy freaking shnikes my water bill would be off the damn charts in Texass.

eeven73 · Posted: Jul 22, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject:

^ in drought plauged CA Shocked

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

eeven73, and I'm following the local guidelines and have reduced usage! Shocked

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Wait a sec. I just realized something. The pool co had to do a partial drain off and refill to correct a chemical imbalance. So that's likely 5000 gallons or so of this. Still, it's a lot of water.