FDA

[chavez]

Okie Boarder, libertarianism ends where most people's wallets begin - i.e. when your exercising your "freedoms" and the resulting aftermath causes financial damage to others.

His point is that WE get stuck with the bill when someone else gets sick/injured due to a choice they made. Thus, legislation to prevent such incidents.

This is a core problem with strict libertarianism - responsibility does not end with the person who makes the choice and things go wrong. We all pay.

[Nor*Cal]

[RampageWake]

The problem with your argument chavez is that dictating a healthy diet and banning alcohol, transfats, cigs, etc... could save us money also. It's hard for me to argue for legalized marajuana (I don't smoke) and then also argue for banning milk. I think the happy medium is to not ban it, but allow consumers to sue suppliers if they get sick from milk. This essentially gets rid of it because the free market is not willing to take that risk. If they are, then a jury can decide if the consumer or supplier has culpability.

[Okie Boarder]

chavez, I see others already chimed in on one aspect, but I'll hit another. I used abortion as a comparison. Are you saying that a woman choosing to have an abortion never costs others?

[eeven73]

Stop, its not black and white and you know it.

STOP.

[Tracktor]

[RampageWake]

[Okie Boarder]

Of course you want to think of it that way. Gray areas allow for subjectivity which allows a mjaority to decide what can bend and twist and still kinda sorta be Constitutional. Liberty is liberty. If you truly want people to have liberty and freedom, you can't infringe upon those things, no matter what you believe about the issue.

[chavez]

Nor*Cal, effective litigation cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.

Okie Boarder, this is what pisses me off about so-called libertarians. You want to have limited government intervention into your daily affairs, right? But you also generally want less taxation, right? Well then, perhaps you can explain to me who the f is going to pay for Joe Libertarians grave mistake? You already know the answer, we all see the person when we look in the mirror.

[Okie Boarder]

The individual should be responsible for themselves. f

[chavez]

[Okie Boarder]

So instead you suggest we keep heading down the path of controlling people's lives through bans. Talk about utopia. But, oh, we can only control the things you subjectively think are important at the moment.

[eeven73]

[jgriffith]

[eeven73]

http://www.dairyherd.com/dairy-news/Mother-warns-against-feeding-raw-milk-to-children-150964065.html

Perhaps I was mistaken or had conflated the deaths in my original post with another incident. I swear some of these kids died as a result. I will keep looking.

I did find this heart warming thread about one of the ill children losing her colon due to the sickness. So that was probably well worth the enzymes from the raw milk.

[brew]

This thread is all over the board as usual, but why would anyone want raw milk. We buy our milk from the Amish community and it's pastuerized. Even they drink the pastuerized variety. If they aren't going to drink it straight with the beliefs they have, I'm sure as hell not going to. For the record these guys make the best chocolate milk you've ever had. I don't like milk, but I'll drink that any time.

Okie, quit taking everything to abortion. Can't you discuss a topic without having to revert to abortion all the time? Discuss the topic on hand rather than going to straight to, "How does that belief not contradict your abortion belief?"

[Okie Boarder]

Fair enough. My bottom line, on topic, quit telling people what they can and can't put in and do with their bodies. Allow true freedom and liberty and let's really look at what the FDA and USDA is telling us is safe.

[jgriffith]

[goofyboy]

If it is sold in a store, yes, we should have regulations. That protects the store, the pharmacists, the producer of said goods and the consumer - to some extent.

Now, IF I want to go out and get raw milk, a pound of weed and some viagra from my neighbor, I should be allowed to. IF I get sick as a dog and can't afford medical care, I SHOULD be left to die, as it was my OWN fault.

[jgriffith]

[goofyboy]

I don't understand the question. Are you talking about raw milk? If so, then yes. Those kids are the responsibility of the parents. If they give them raw milk and they die, that's on them. They will have to live with that.

[eeven73]

Ok, so it's a check in at the ER.

1.) Did your parents give you Raw Milk? y/n

2.) Did your 6 hr boner result from prescription or non prescription Viagra? y/n

3.)....................

[goofyboy]

1.) The doctors would be asking the parents this, not the child.
2.) Sounds like a good question from a doctor.

Neither one of those has anything to do with the discussion. I can go to the ER for slamming my toe into the wall and breaking it. They would ask me what I did. What's your point??

[brew]

I believe his point is that if it's your problem what you do with your body, how is the ER going to differentiate between a your problem and an insurable problem?

[jgriffith]

[brew]

Inconsistent and hypocritical are two ways of saying the same thing.

There is a difference in the discussions, but in case you haven't noticed Okie deals in black and white and he's always taking one discussion and leading everyone down a winding offshoot and then saying your views are inconsistent when that offshoot is different than the original discussion. See earlier points in this very thread where he goes straight to abortion.

If you're going to take that approach then you can't stand on a soap box and say, "Quit telling people what they can and can't do with their bodies" and then turn around on that same soap box and say to the other side, "Ladies, you can't have an abortion because I'm going to tell you what you can do with your bodies."

[Okie Boarder]

Looks like I missed a bunch.

jgriffith, goofyboy pretty much covered the questions the same way I would answer them.

brew, that used to be my stance. I no longer favor abortion laws. I came to realize the inconsistency of the stance. I think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies and they should also deal with the consequences of their decisions.

[Okie Boarder]

I treat things as black and white because most of the time they are. Seems like every time grey is brought into the picture it is a distraction aimed at trying to convince someone we should do something different that reduces freedom and liberty.

[eeven73]

Well, your day to day must be a train wreck. There is subtlety and nuance in everything in life.

[Okie Boarder]

Day to day life is a completely separate issue here. I'm talking law, regulation and government.

[Tracktor]

[brew]

[Okie Boarder]

Hmmmm, a year ago maybe...could be a little less than that.

Did I throw ya into a tail spin with that one?

[brew]

Threw me off a little, especially when you keep going back to abortion in every debate. Does that mean you will support civil unions now as well, since the government should stay out of everyone's lives?

I think you're three steps away from being one of the guys I see on TV living deep in the woods proclaiming your independence from the US.

[Nor*Cal]