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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder, libertarianism ends where most people's wallets begin - i.e. when your exercising your "freedoms" and the resulting aftermath causes financial damage to others.
His point is that WE get stuck with the bill when someone else gets sick/injured due to a choice they made. Thus, legislation to prevent such incidents.
This is a core problem with strict libertarianism - responsibility does not end with the person who makes the choice and things go wrong. We all pay. _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:25 am Post subject: |
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chavez wrote: | This is a core problem with strict libertarianism - responsibility does not end with the person who makes the choice and things go wrong. We all pay. |
Sounds like a problem with torts and not a problem with strict libertariansim. _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
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RampageWake Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 2002 City: Houston
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:27 am Post subject: |
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The problem with your argument chavez is that dictating a healthy diet and banning alcohol, transfats, cigs, etc... could save us money also. It's hard for me to argue for legalized marajuana (I don't smoke) and then also argue for banning milk. I think the happy medium is to not ban it, but allow consumers to sue suppliers if they get sick from milk. This essentially gets rid of it because the free market is not willing to take that risk. If they are, then a jury can decide if the consumer or supplier has culpability. _________________
Rhawn wrote: | You should have a less retarded friend read over your posts before you hit "Submit"
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RIP M.H.Legge |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:34 am Post subject: |
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chavez, I see others already chimed in on one aspect, but I'll hit another. I used abortion as a comparison. Are you saying that a woman choosing to have an abortion never costs others? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Stop, its not black and white and you know it.
STOP. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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Tracktor Soul Rider
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 339 City: Vancouver, WA
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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eeven73 wrote: | http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2012/04/more_people_stricken_with_e_co.html
Here is link to initial reporting of incident. 19 ill 4 hositalized. I will have to dig more as memory tells me there were fatalities with situation.
Yes anyone who doesnt immunize there children is an idiot. I have actually had a woman try and tell me we can cure all the diseases that vaccines prevent, but we cant cure autism. Really, there is a cure for Polio. Interesting. |
Yeah, you might want to keep digging as that article doesn't support your hyperbole. I had heard of that instance but don't believe anyone died. Why not post all of the E-Coli outbreaks that are from fast food chains while you are at it? Maybe because they don't support your argument? In this case the milk itself wasn't really the problem it was the handling of it. I would surmise that actual percentage of problems is relatively low. The FDA issue is because they can't regulate it and government hates not being in control.
As for vaccines, I will happily continue to be "stupid" as my kids are in great shape & very healthy. I would say that kids these days are more at risk from inactivity and poor diet that not enough vaccinations................. |
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RampageWake Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 2002 City: Houston
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I used abortion as a comparison. Are you saying that a woman choosing to have an abortion never costs others?
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At the risk of engaging this nonsense, lots of abortions have SAVED us money. Esp. the ones the taxpayer has to front the money for. _________________
Rhawn wrote: | You should have a less retarded friend read over your posts before you hit "Submit"
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RIP M.H.Legge |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Of course you want to think of it that way. Gray areas allow for subjectivity which allows a mjaority to decide what can bend and twist and still kinda sorta be Constitutional. Liberty is liberty. If you truly want people to have liberty and freedom, you can't infringe upon those things, no matter what you believe about the issue. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Nor*Cal, effective litigation cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.
Okie Boarder, this is what pisses me off about so-called libertarians. You want to have limited government intervention into your daily affairs, right? But you also generally want less taxation, right? Well then, perhaps you can explain to me who the f is going to pay for Joe Libertarians grave mistake? You already know the answer, we all see the person when we look in the mirror. _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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The individual should be responsible for themselves. f _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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chavez Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 27375 City: Roseville
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder wrote: | The individual should be responsible for themselves. f |
Super de frickin duper.
See my comment about squeezing blood from a turnip.
Call me when you find this utopian fantasyland. Sounds great. _________________
Quote: | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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So instead you suggest we keep heading down the path of controlling people's lives through bans. Talk about utopia. But, oh, we can only control the things you subjectively think are important at the moment. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Tracktor wrote: | eeven73 wrote: | http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2012/04/more_people_stricken_with_e_co.html
Here is link to initial reporting of incident. 19 ill 4 hositalized. I will have to dig more as memory tells me there were fatalities with situation.
Yes anyone who doesnt immunize there children is an idiot. I have actually had a woman try and tell me we can cure all the diseases that vaccines prevent, but we cant cure autism. Really, there is a cure for Polio. Interesting. |
Yeah, you might want to keep digging as that article doesn't support your hyperbole. I had heard of that instance but don't believe anyone died. Why not post all of the E-Coli outbreaks that are from fast food chains while you are at it? Maybe because they don't support your argument? In this case the milk itself wasn't really the problem it was the handling of it. I would surmise that actual percentage of problems is relatively low. The FDA issue is because they can't regulate it and government hates not being in control.
As for vaccines, I will happily continue to be "stupid" as my kids are in great shape & very healthy. I would say that kids these days are more at risk from inactivity and poor diet that not enough vaccinations................. |
Hey good luck to you then. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 10:58 am Post subject: |
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eeven73 wrote: |
Hey good luck to your kids then. |
I fixed it for you. Hopefully his kids wont be affected by his irresponsible decisions. |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 11:14 am Post subject: |
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http://www.dairyherd.com/dairy-news/Mother-warns-against-feeding-raw-milk-to-children-150964065.html
Perhaps I was mistaken or had conflated the deaths in my original post with another incident. I swear some of these kids died as a result. I will keep looking.
I did find this heart warming thread about one of the ill children losing her colon due to the sickness. So that was probably well worth the enzymes from the raw milk. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 11:42 am Post subject: |
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This thread is all over the board as usual, but why would anyone want raw milk. We buy our milk from the Amish community and it's pastuerized. Even they drink the pastuerized variety. If they aren't going to drink it straight with the beliefs they have, I'm sure as hell not going to. For the record these guys make the best chocolate milk you've ever had. I don't like milk, but I'll drink that any time.
Okie, quit taking everything to abortion. Can't you discuss a topic without having to revert to abortion all the time? Discuss the topic on hand rather than going to straight to, "How does that belief not contradict your abortion belief?"
Quote: | Call me when you find this utopian fantasyland. Sounds great. |
Call me too. I'm looking to move. |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough. My bottom line, on topic, quit telling people what they can and can't put in and do with their bodies. Allow true freedom and liberty and let's really look at what the FDA and USDA is telling us is safe. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Okie Boarder wrote: | Fair enough. My bottom line, on topic, quit telling people what they can and can't put in and do with their bodies. Allow true freedom and liberty and let's really look at what the FDA and USDA is telling us is safe. |
So we should not require prescriptions or regulation for medication/drugs of any kind?
Guess my wife should go back to school, her PharmD wont be worth jack anymore.
No more food inspections too? What about imported food? |
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goofyboy Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 4463 City: Houston
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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If it is sold in a store, yes, we should have regulations. That protects the store, the pharmacists, the producer of said goods and the consumer - to some extent.
Now, IF I want to go out and get raw milk, a pound of weed and some viagra from my neighbor, I should be allowed to. IF I get sick as a dog and can't afford medical care, I SHOULD be left to die, as it was my OWN fault. _________________ Work SUX! |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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goofyboy wrote: | If it is sold in a store, yes, we should have regulations. That protects the store, the pharmacists, the producer of said goods and the consumer - to some extent.
Now, IF I want to go out and get raw milk, a pound of weed and some viagra from my neighbor, I should be allowed to. IF I get sick as a dog and can't afford medical care, I SHOULD be left to die, as it was my OWN fault. |
Same for kids that did what their parents told them to do? |
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goofyboy Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 4463 City: Houston
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't understand the question. Are you talking about raw milk? If so, then yes. Those kids are the responsibility of the parents. If they give them raw milk and they die, that's on them. They will have to live with that. _________________ Work SUX! |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, so it's a check in at the ER.
1.) Did your parents give you Raw Milk? y/n
2.) Did your 6 hr boner result from prescription or non prescription Viagra? y/n
3.).................... _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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goofyboy Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 4463 City: Houston
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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1.) The doctors would be asking the parents this, not the child.
2.) Sounds like a good question from a doctor.
Neither one of those has anything to do with the discussion. I can go to the ER for slamming my toe into the wall and breaking it. They would ask me what I did. What's your point?? _________________ Work SUX! |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I believe his point is that if it's your problem what you do with your body, how is the ER going to differentiate between a your problem and an insurable problem?
Quote: | Fair enough. My bottom line, on topic, quit telling people what they can and can't put in and do with their bodies. Allow true freedom and liberty and let's really look at what the FDA and USDA is telling us is safe. |
Yet, you argue against abortion, the morning after pill, etc. Do you see that maybe your view is somewhat hypocritical? Before you go down the road of arguing to protect the unborn baby, realize you are still telling a mother what she can and can't do with her body so there are exceptions to your bottom line above. I'm anti-abortion but also pro-regulations, so at least I'm consistent. |
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jgriffith Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 21 Mar 2012 Posts: 1454 City: Boerne
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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brew wrote: |
Yet, you argue against abortion, the morning after pill, etc. Do you see that maybe your view is somewhat hypocritical? Before you go down the road of arguing to protect the unborn baby, realize you are still telling a mother what she can and can't do with her body so there are exceptions to your bottom line above. I'm anti-abortion but also pro-regulations, so at least I'm consistent. |
Is that stance necessarily inconsistent or hypocritical? Can you see a difference with telling a mother what she can and can't do when it affects the life of another v. when it does not affect the life of another? |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Inconsistent and hypocritical are two ways of saying the same thing.
There is a difference in the discussions, but in case you haven't noticed Okie deals in black and white and he's always taking one discussion and leading everyone down a winding offshoot and then saying your views are inconsistent when that offshoot is different than the original discussion. See earlier points in this very thread where he goes straight to abortion.
If you're going to take that approach then you can't stand on a soap box and say, "Quit telling people what they can and can't do with their bodies" and then turn around on that same soap box and say to the other side, "Ladies, you can't have an abortion because I'm going to tell you what you can do with your bodies." |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like I missed a bunch.
jgriffith, goofyboy pretty much covered the questions the same way I would answer them.
brew, that used to be my stance. I no longer favor abortion laws. I came to realize the inconsistency of the stance. I think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies and they should also deal with the consequences of their decisions. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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I treat things as black and white because most of the time they are. Seems like every time grey is brought into the picture it is a distraction aimed at trying to convince someone we should do something different that reduces freedom and liberty. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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eeven73 PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 5377 City: Halfway
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well, your day to day must be a train wreck. There is subtlety and nuance in everything in life. _________________ Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Day to day life is a completely separate issue here. I'm talking law, regulation and government. _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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Tracktor Soul Rider
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 339 City: Vancouver, WA
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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jgriffith wrote: | eeven73 wrote: |
Hey good luck to your kids then. |
I fixed it for you. Hopefully his kids wont be affected by his irresponsible decisions. |
Lol, you just keep doing whatever your TV & government tell you to and you'll be just dandy!.............and luck is a bunch of fiction just like karma, but thanks anyway............... |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | brew, that used to be my stance. I no longer favor abortion laws. I came to realize the inconsistency of the stance. I think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies and they should also deal with the consequences of their decisions. |
Now I'm really confused. When did this change in philosophy take place? |
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Okie Boarder Ladies Man
Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmmm, a year ago maybe...could be a little less than that.
Did I throw ya into a tail spin with that one? _________________ If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Threw me off a little, especially when you keep going back to abortion in every debate. Does that mean you will support civil unions now as well, since the government should stay out of everyone's lives?
I think you're three steps away from being one of the guys I see on TV living deep in the woods proclaiming your independence from the US. |
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Nor*Cal Ladies Man
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac
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Posted: Mar 06, 2013 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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chavez wrote: | Okie Boarder wrote: | The individual should be responsible for themselves. f |
Super de frickin duper.
See my comment about squeezing blood from a turnip. |
That's why I carry insurance. Not so much for my mistakes or accidents but those caused others who are uninsured. _________________ If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. |
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