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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Why ban it? Reply with quote

Doesn't make sense to me. If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it?

Quote:
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — California has become the first state to ban a controversial form of psychotherapy aimed at making gay teenagers straight.

Gov. Jerry Brown announced Sunday that he had signed SB1172 by Democratic Senator Ted Lieu of Torrance. The law, which prohibits sexual orientation change efforts for anyone under 18, will stop children from being psychologically abused, Lieu said.

Effective Jan. 1, the state will ban what is known as reparative or conversion therapy for minors. The therapies "have no basis in science or medicine and they will now be relegated to the dustbin of quackery," Brown said in a statement.

Mainstream mental health organizations have disavowed such therapy, and a number of mental health associations in California — including the state's Board of Behavorial Sciences, the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists and the California Psychological Association — supported the legislation.

Gay rights groups have called the practice dangerous because it can put youth at higher risk of depression and suicide.

"We're grateful to Gov. Brown for standing with California's children," the Human Rights Campaign said in a statement. "LGBT youth will now be protected from a practice that has not only been debunked as junk science, but has been proven to have drastically negative effects on their well-being."

The group called on other states to follow California's lead on the issue.

Conservative religious groups and some Republicans have argued that banning conversion therapy would hinder parents' right to provide psychological care for children experiencing gender confusion.

The Encino, Calif.-based National Association for Research and Therapy on Homosexuality said in August that the bill was a case of "legislative overreach," and Lieu's claims of harm to children were based on politics, not research.


http://news.yahoo.com/california-law-bans-gay-teen-conversion-therapy-053700163.html

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chavez
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why ban it.... hmm... let me think of about a billion ways a parent should not be able to abuse a child...
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand why this is even needed. Why not just beat the gay out of them? Or guilt it out of them using a book that is a couple thousand years old which has all the answers?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves, but do you think all psychotherapy is child abuse or just the type that you disagree with?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez wrote:
Why ban it.... hmm... let me think of about a billion ways a parent should not be able to abuse a child...


Why do you consider it abuse?

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMFG do I really have to explain this sh*t to you guys? Confused
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgriffith wrote:
chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves.....


Then maybe you should look it up. Its not your average 'therapy'.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this?

Last edited by jgriffith on Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chavez, isn't that is what a discussion is about...sharing your point of view and expanding on it if someone asks for clarification?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgriffith wrote:
chavez, I have no idea what the treatment mentioned involves, but do you think all psychotherapy is child abuse or just the type that you disagree with?


I really don't care either way about the gay psychotherapy ban, but I think jgriffith poses a legitimate question.

There are reasons other than sexual orientation that parents will send their kids to psychotherapy for. Many of these reasons could probably be argued as harmful for the kids' mental health. Why not ban all psychotherapy for minors that is not court approved?

I can see how trying to "treat the gay out of a kid" could cause serious mental and emotional issues. I think trying to treat anything relative to a direction a kid wants to take in life could cause the same mental and emotional issues.
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mainstream mental health organizations have disavowed such therapy, and a number of mental health associations in California — including the state's Board of Behavorial Sciences, the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists and the California Psychological Association — supported the legislation.


Just wanted to emphasize this...

This wasn't even the most egregious thing passed this year but ok, let me hear what non-Californians think.

Unless there is a special session all the bills have been chaptered (signed into law) and/or vetoed for the year, the legislature is off campaigning and my only worries are the regulations being developed by the bureaucracy, which is more troublesome. Live to fight another year, some big victories, some palatable defeats, some issues to litigate...

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgriffith wrote:
I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this?


Holy crap, you never heard of Google?

How about we try this for hetero kids of gay parents to make the kids gay? Or maybe for criminals? Are you getting the picture?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie wrote:
If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it?

Are we talking about abortion? Arrow

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partyb wrote:
jgriffith wrote:
I wouldnt even know how to look it up. What makes it "not your average therapy"? Why is it child abuse? Is all psycotherapy child abuse? If not, what makes this?


Holy crap, you never heard of Google?

How about we try this for hetero kids of gay parents to make the kids gay? Or maybe for criminals? Are you getting the picture?


Apparently its a controversial therapy according to Google, ok now I know why it is child abuse. Thanks for the tip that Google is pretty cool!
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RampageWake wrote:
Okie wrote:
If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it?

Are we talking about abortion? Arrow


Are we comparing murder to junk science Arrow
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RampageWake wrote:
Okie wrote:
If people think it works for them, let them use the therapy. If you think it is wrong, junk science, etc. then don't use it. Why does the government have to step in and dictate it?

Are we talking about abortion? Arrow


Well, the statement I made is very similar to what those supporting abortion do say. I know you made the comment facetiously, but it seems like it should go both ways, IMO.

Just as much as one group thinks the therapy is abuse or harmful to a human child, another group thinks similarly about abortion.

My whole thing is, why dictate these sorts of things. Why not let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children.

What is a law was passed banning parents from spanking their children?

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder, those aren't equivalent and there are laws about child abuse. Someone has to advocate for the children and set up standards, your argument is probably also what was applied when child labor laws were put in place.
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is pretty clear that you should not be allowed to do anything to someone else' living child that is going to harm them.

Okie is trying to use the slippery slope argument, which I almost never buy.


There are clearly degrees, and a society will decide where those lines are.

Right now, it is considered abusive and it is illegal to strip your child naked and beat them with a whip with bits of metal embedded in the tips. It is also illegal to deny your child food and shelter for any extended period of time. Having these things being illegal for a long time has so far not resulted in it being illegal to spank your child (within reason) or to make them go outside to play.

Quote:
My whole thing is, why dictate these sorts of things. Why not let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children.


We do let people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and raise their children. But, with anything, there are lines that our society decides.

I see no reason to be against banning a practice that is not based in science, and has been shown to be emotionally damaging to children and which exhibits a tie to adolescent suicide. If it is not harmful, then have at it, even though we all know you aren't going to ever change someone's sexual orientation.

Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"


How about the current trend of not immunizing children?

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
Quote:
Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"


How about the current trend of not immunizing children?


The ignorance involved in this trend is really sad. However, I feel it should be the parent's right to choose against immunization.
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe you can mandate immunizations for a child, however I do believe that you can make it a requirement for certain public services, like public school.
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73 wrote:
Quote:
Would it be ok to do something harmful to a child as long as you call it "therapy?"


How about the current trend of not immunizing children?


Please read: http://gov.ca.gov/docs/AB_2109_Signing_Message.pdf

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that bill does exactly what?

Reads to me like NOTHING.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact we(society) have to deal with bedbugs and polio drives me nuts
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eeven73, so you think parents should be forced to immunize their children so we(society) do not have to deal with certain diseases?

Do you also think the government should regulate what we eat, how much exercise we have, if we should go to counceling, etc, etc. to prevent other health problems?

For the record I am strongly in favor of everyone having immunizations and I think it is sad when parents choose not to, especially when they are mis/uninformed. However, that decision should not be made by the government.
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Immunization and the regulation of exercise and diet are like apples and oranges.

The decision to immunize or not is not made by the government.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neognosis wrote:
Immunization and the regulation of exercise and diet are like apples and oranges.

The decision to immunize or not is not made by the government.


I have no idea what the point of this post is?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am NOT in favor of a gov't mandate for immunization.

I do think you have to be a complete idiot to not immunize your kids.

In fact if they are going jail people for not taking their kids to the doctor(religious belief) it probably should be a crime.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There IS NO gov't mandate for immunization.

Just so everyone understands. Because this is how stupid spreads.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nor*Cal wrote:
Okie Boarder, those aren't equivalent and there are laws about child abuse. Someone has to advocate for the children and set up standards, your argument is probably also what was applied when child labor laws were put in place.


Fair enough...I don't necessarily disagree.

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB,I assume if a similar type of therapy was being used to deal with teenage alcohol or drug abuse, you would also be ok banning it?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
CB,I assume if a similar type of therapy was being used to deal with teenage alcohol or drug abuse, you would also be ok banning it?

Omfg

Dude those items are illegal for minors. Last I checked being LGBT was not. Idea

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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Understood, but it never seemed like the issue with the article or this discussion was a focus on legality...simply methods of the therapy and whether it is abuse, right? Does the legality change something in your mind about this subject?
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PostPosted: Oct 01, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Does the legality change something in your mind about this subject?

Does a bear sh/t in the woods?

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PostPosted: Oct 02, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as people are still of the opinion that being homosexual is a choice (and I'm not talking about the two hot college chicks kissing in the club), then we will still have these types of discussions.
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