Gas Prices

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

I have NO idea if there's anything valid about this, though.

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

cameraboy, it's valid and well documented (i.e. its not a conspiracy theory). GM and others played some really, really dirty pool back then. They purposefully ruined the public transport infrastructure in Los Angeles and turned it in to the traffic hellhole we see today.

Hey, whatever made them a buck, right?

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Oh and I don't think for a second that BP selling the Carson refinery is going to make a difference. Another company will come in and take over. Refineries aren't exactly in abundant supply.

The TX refinery seemingly has been a pain in their ass for since they acquired it so them selling it isn't very surprising.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

flixmaster · Site Owner Joined: 30 Oct 2003 Posts: 7487

Gas prices will get up to $4.50 in austin I bet. I hope it will not go higher than that. I think some months I am spending $1500-2K per month on gas. might even be more.

I hate the whole gas price issue. I think a group of zillionairs just sit around and say.. Hey did you see the news about XXX... we should bump gas prices today.. Smile

I wish I had a truck that would run off some alternative fuels.

I think someone can make bio happen if they wanted but why move to bio when the gas companies are making so much money. There are problems with distribution etc but if someone can make money then someone would solve the distribution problem also.

It is such a major issue we probably need to put together a task force from wb.com to work on solving this issue.

eeven73 · Posted: Feb 22, 2012 11:57 am Post subject:

flixmaster · Site Owner Joined: 30 Oct 2003 Posts: 7487

this thread alone will probably result in a 5 cent increase this week!

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

cameraboy, I don't think Nor*Cal was blaming the unions at all. He was more saying they are good with pub works projects because that means they get work.

The LA/GM thing was sold to the public as "with these freeways, you'll get to where you are going faster blah blah blah". We all know how that turned out, and I don't mean today's LA - it's been a traffic nightmare for as long as I've been alive. It also was directly responsible for LAs terrible air quality - especially in the late 60's and 70's. The smog situation is actually getting better these days.

And FWIW - I live very much in the burbs. Just because you live in the burbs doesn't mean you have to choose an unwalkable location nor does it mean you have to have a commute.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

chavez, Roseville has made a concerted effort to recruit businesses and develop in that sense. They'll do better than most when regional targets are assigned under SB 375.

eeven73 · Posted: Feb 22, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155193/thanks

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Nor*Cal, I agree with the SAC-SFO and LAX-SDG thing. They just need to get better with ticket pricing because the current pricing on Cap Corridor is insane. I'm not paying them $100 R/T to get *almost* to SFO for the wife and I (plus whatever the ticket is for BART from Richmond to SFO).

It's like a $35 trip in our car (including tolls but not parking).

If the RT cost was $50 I could see it. It's always nice to leave the car at home and I'd pay $15 extra to not deal with driving. But (at least) $65? No wai.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I said that I had heard that businesses discouraged the building of public transportation through lobbying and instead encouraged the building of a road and highways system.

Nor*Cal responded thusly:

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

1.) I never blamed nor would I blame unions for sprawl, there is no there, there... My statement stands for what it is not for what you infer it is. Unions are proponents of public works projects, FACT! A bulk of which are roadways due to the direct nexus between gas taxes and transportation funds, FACT! There is not a lot of money in comparison for public housing or public buildings especially with a direct connection to a funding source, FACT! This is not an assignment of blame nor can removal of electric trolleys from some cities be blamed as primary sources for sprawl as it only took place in a few cities. Ultimately cities and counties throughout the country made poor land use decisions based on immediate financial needs or desires as opposed to smart growth.

2.) The items quoted that I responded to in that comment including yours both referred to gas. Gas taxes are the primary source of transportation funding. The electric trolley theory also includes tire companies and standard oil.

3.) Refining is not where oil companies profit so paying those taxes only increases the passed through costs.

4.) Neither the automobile, oil, or tire companies made a decision on where you should live nor did the unionized laborers build the roads... Until local planners sited, sub-divided, permitted and approved plans to build on that land... Government is a part of this puzzle as well and the main part of the solution. Develop infill, brownfields, and more efficient transportation while ceasing sprawl. Sounds like a plan to me...

pet575 · Posted: Feb 22, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject:

"YEAH!!!!"

scott a · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 9810

Prices in San Jose look like this-
$4.25
$4.35
$4.45
Diesel $4.50ish

Took the long way home to check on Safeway's prices. I like this much better.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Hmm.. High gas prices in the summer before an election with a democrat in the white house...

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Ok I think this thread has officially come off the tracks.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

cameraboy, is there really a need to explain the difference between public works and private construction projects you described? We're talking about two VERY separate issues.

And yes you misunderstood me. I represent a coalition of major private unions. I know you have tried to paint me into some box you can understand but nothing is as simple as you try to make it. We are not on the same page or comprehension level when it comes to these subjects.

And F!all there's no conspiracy against the President. Summer fuel formulations always increase the cost at the pump and it's easy to see the affects of speculation in the market. None of this is voodoo or shady, it's the nature of commodities.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

On your conspiracy about trolley's... Here's more history from your source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Electric_Railway

Decline
Huntington's involvement with urban rail was intimately tied to his real estate development operations. Real estate development was so lucrative for Huntington and Southern Pacific that they could use the Red Car as a loss leader, however when most of the company's holdings had been developed by 1920 their major income source began to deplete. Many rural passenger lines were unprofitable, with losses offset by revenue generated from passenger lines in populated corridors and from freight operations. The least-used Red Car lines were converted to cheaper buses as early as 1925.

In the pre-automobile era, electric interurban rail was the only way to connect outlying suburban and exurban parcels to central cities.

Although the railway owned extensive private rights-of-way, usually between urban areas, much of the Pacific Electric trackage in urban areas such as downtown Los Angeles west of the Los Angeles River was in streets shared with automobiles and trucks. Virtually all street crossings were at-grade, and increasing automobile traffic led to decreasing Red Car speeds on much of its trackage.[4] At its nadir, the busy Santa Monica Boulevard line, which connected Los Angeles to Hollywood and on to Beverly Hills and Santa Monica, had an average speed of 13 miles per hour (20.9 km/h)[5]

Traffic congestion was of such great concern by the late 1930s that the influential Automobile Club of Southern California engineered an elaborate plan to create an elevated freeway-type "Motorway System," a key aspect of which was the dismantling of the streetcar lines, replacing it with buses that could run on both local streets and on the new express roads.[6]

When the freeway system was planned in the 1930s the city planners planned to include light rail tracks in the center margin of each freeway but the plan was never implemented.[7]

The Whittier and Fullerton was cut in 1938. Redondo Beach, Newport Beach, Sawtelle via San Vicente, and Riverside in 1940. When the San Bernardino Freeway opened in 1941 but was not yet connected to the Hollywood Freeway, while the "Four Way" overpass was being constructed, westbound car traffic from the SB freeway poured onto downtown streets near the present Union Station. Pacific Electric's multiple car trains coming and going from Pasadena, Sierra Madre, and Monrovia/Glendora used those same streets the final few miles to the 6th and Main PE terminal and were totally bogged down within this jammed traffic. Schedules could not be met, plus former patrons were now driving. The San Bernardino line, Pomona branch, Temple City branch via Alhambra's Main St., San Bernardino's Mountain View local to 34th St., Santa Monica Blvd. via Beverly Hills, and all remaining Pasadena local service were all cut in 1941.

Pacific Electric carried increased passenger loads during World War II, when Los Angeles County's population nearly doubled as war industries concentrated in the region attracting millions of workers. There were several years when the company's income statement showed a profit, most notably during World War II, when gasoline was rationed and much of the populace depended on mass transit. At peak operation toward the end of World War II, the PE dispatched over 1000 trains daily and was a major employer in Southern California.

The nation's last interurban RPO (Railroad Post Office) service was operated by PE on its San Bernardino Line. This RPO service was inaugurated comparatively late, being started on September 2, 1947. It left LA's Union Station interurban yard on the west side of the terminal turning north onto Alameda Street at 12:45 pm and San Bernardino at 4:40 pm, taking three hours for the trip. It did not operate on Sundays or holidays. This last RPO was pulled off May 6, 1950.

Aware that most new arrivals planned to stay in the region after the war, local municipal governments, Los Angeles County and the State agreed that a massive infrastructure improvement program was necessary. At that time politicians agreed to construct a web of freeways across the region. This was seen as a better solution than a new mass transit system or an upgrade of the Pacific Electric.

And the sprawl in LA had already begun prior to the end of the Trolley's...

eeven73 · Posted: Feb 23, 2012 7:54 am Post subject:

But it fits my "corporations are evil" mentality so much better to blame GM Crying or Very sad

Oh yeah, wasn't ACME involved in this and they routed it right through Toon Town?

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

There was no good reason to not have both the freeway system and the electric train infrastructure. This is where GM and the other corps come in to play. They bought up the systems across the country with the intention of destroying them - so they could sell more cars, buses, oil, tires, etc.

It's pretty cut and dry. It's not a conspiracy, it's fact. In this case, the corporations were evil.

Toon town Laughing

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

eeven73 · Posted: Feb 23, 2012 8:06 am Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

double post

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

eeven73, yet, to this day, San Fran has electric streetcars that run at grade up and down some of it's busiest streets, and they manage.

The point is there are (and always have been) ways to deal with it that can be effective. GM and the other corps had one and only one intention with the system: to destroy it.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Unions spend money lobbying for public works. A bulk of which is transportation related as that is where the guaranteed money is. This is not an indictment of the behavior as it is natural to expect that those who benefit from these projects will support them. Nor is it an assignment of blame for sprawl as I've made it abundantly clear who I believe is responsible, city planners. In no way did I blame unions as you accused. Your default is to assume a constituency you support was being attacked which was simply not the case.

Oil companies do not lobby for public works transportation projects it is easy enough to find this in their disclosures. However, taxes levied against oil companies pay for these projects.

If you are trying to make connections to the past efforts on these fronts more research would have to be done. But at present roads, rail, and other public conveyance projects are advocated by the unions. Some of this includes congestion relief and alternative conveyances. In the 1920's-50's who knows who was advocating for what, they didn't have disclosures then.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac