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Swass
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 Posted: Jan 24, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| You didn't gain the traction you were looking for with Courageous, so you decided to trot out the abortion debate, eh? |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I guess you have me all figured out swass.
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Mr. Top Hat
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to say I agree with Santorum on his views of rape and abortion. If a woman is raped, yes it is terrible, but she should try to make the best out of a bad situation as it is still a life in God's eyes.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Probably when the fetus has a functioning neural net and circulatory system, or at the very earliest, when cells differentiate into specific functions.
Though the POTENTIAL to be a human is also significant, IMO.
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Mr. Top Hat
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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cameraboy, if you don't consider it murder to abort a fetus before the neural net and circulatory system are formed what do you consider it?
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microman
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Top Hat wrote: | | cameraboy, if you don't consider it murder to abort a fetus before the neural net and circulatory system are formed what do you consider it? |
How about when it is capable of taking a breath on its own? |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Wide range of answers just with a few responses. Explains the debate, huh?
MM, question comes to mind about the "breath on its own" concept. If a mother gives birth prematurely to a baby that cannot even breathe on its own, why should any effort or cost go into saving it? Why not let nature take its course and if it can't live on its own...oh well.
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microman
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: |
MM, question comes to mind about the "breath on its own" concept. If a mother gives birth prematurely to a baby that cannot even breathe on its own, why should any effort or cost go into saving it? Why not let nature take its course and if it can't live on its own...oh well. |
That would just be god's will wouldn't? Who are we to interfer after all? Do those embryos go to heaven?
Anyway, abortion doesn't bother me, I think there are plenty of good reasons for a woman/couple to have one but I won't begrudge someone who thinks otherwise, provided they don't wish to place restrictions on the right of a woman to choose. |
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to know what you really think. Should something be done in that scenario or not?
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chavez
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Top Hat wrote: | | I would have to say I agree with Santorum on his views of rape and abortion. If a woman is raped, yes it is terrible, but she should try to make the best out of a bad situation as it is still a life in God's eyes. |
Reason #374874^4 why Santorum is a f'ing idiot.
Your god allowed a woman to endure the worst possible offense short of death, and your god demands her to deal with the child she did not want and whatever genetic shortcomings the bastards daddy obviously has?
Yeah, f your god and the horse he rode in on.
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Mr. Top Hat
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| microman wrote: | | Mr. Top Hat wrote: | | cameraboy, if you don't consider it murder to abort a fetus before the neural net and circulatory system are formed what do you consider it? |
How about when it is capable of taking a breath on its own? |
I asked what, not when. I'm well aware that killing a breathing child is murder
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microman
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| There is definitely something patriarchal when it comes to wanting to limit a woman's ability to choose. It's not hard to tell that many of the men strongly in the anti-choice camp want to have some control over the reproductive rights of women. They don't like the idea that a woman could get pregnant out of wedlock and then terminate without having to spend 9 months being properly judged, ridiculed, and shunned. |
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Mr. Top Hat
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: |
Your God allowed a woman to endure the worst possible offense short of death, and your God demands her to deal with the child she did not want and whatever genetic shortcomings the bastards daddy obviously has?
Yeah, f your God and the horse He rode in on. |
It's not the childs fault and ultimately thats who truly pays the price for the sh*tty situation you listed above, although I do understand your frustration.
If they allowed exceptions for rape victims what do you think should happen to a girl who just claims that she was raped in order to get an abortion. Would you consider her a murderer?
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chavez
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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First and foremost, abortion is NOT murder. I know all too well what murder is. Unless you've been down that tragic road personally, I highly suggest you stop calling it murder. Doing so make you appear to be an ignoramus.
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Mr. Top Hat
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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I do not believe God makes that distinction.
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chavez
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| Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Top Hat, sorry, been through a murder these things aren't on the same level. Until you've been through an actual murder, I suggest you shut the f up and keep your uninformed opinions to yourself.
Ever have to sit there in the funeral home and help your family plan the final disposition of one of their children who had her head caved in with a fxcking hammer? No? Hmm... Maybe you don't have a fricking clue about what is and is not murder... Just maybe. 
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | I'd like to know what you really think. Should something be done in that scenario or not? |
MM...I would really like to know what you think about the scenario if you would answer it.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: |
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chavez, I know you went through a horrible ordeal and it definitely showed you how evil a person can be. I'm not trying to bash on that and I hope you understand I am respectfully asking this.
If you watched the video how is it you justify what is seen on there as not being murder? I'm curious as to why you make the distinction.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| microman wrote: | | There is definitely something patriarchal when it comes to wanting to limit a woman's ability to choose. It's not hard to tell that many of the men strongly in the anti-choice camp want to have some control over the reproductive rights of women. They don't like the idea that a woman could get pregnant out of wedlock and then terminate without having to spend 9 months being properly judged, ridiculed, and shunned. |
This is one reason I personally question having the law. First, I'm not sure the motivation you're thinking is really there, but that's a whole other discussion. This brings up an interesting point though. If you keep abortion legal, you're allowing the woman to choose, but the man and the baby get no choice. If you make it illegal, you have essentially gotten rid of all choice. To me it is a no win situation all the way around. With the current situation what if she is pregnant and wants an abortion and he wants to keep the baby. What about his rights and his choice?
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Your god allowed a woman to endure the worst possible offense short of death, and your god demands her to deal with the child she did not want and whatever genetic shortcomings the bastards daddy obviously has?
Yeah, f your god and the horse he rode in on. |
Well, we need to look at the whole story. God commands that a few things be done when a woman is raped:
| Quote: | (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. |
But that's only if the woman cried out. If the woman is, say, too paralyzed with fear or scared to cry out:
| Quote: | (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. |
So clearly, God gives us more to think about when considering what to do with a woman who was raped. I'm not sure if we are supposed to stone her before we do a pregnancy test or what though...
As for when I consider an abortion "murder," I am not sure. I've never been in the situation where my girl and I have had an abortion. I don't think that it is the same thing to abort a cluster of cells with no neural net as it it to abort a fetus in the last trimester, for sure. But I can't make that legal or medical determination.
| Quote: | | f you keep abortion legal, you're allowing the woman to choose, but the man and the baby get no choice. |
Well, the man had the choice to not have sex with the woman or to use a condom, so.....
Just to throw the logic back to the right side...
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Well, the man had the choice to not have sex with the woman or to use a condom, so.....
Just to throw the logic back to the right side...
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LOL! Nice lob. I guess that has some validity, but the point is they are now in a position facing a pregnancy. Why not let them both decide together since they're in it 50/50...both have skin in the game.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | they are now in a position facing a pregnancy. Why not let them both decide together since they're in it 50/50...both have skin in the game. |
I don't remember if you have any children yet, Okie. I don't think you do though.
I have two. And believe me, the pregnancy was most definitely NOT 50/50.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: |
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After the woman gets your sperm, you no longer count. 50 /50 is a myth to make men feel better about being dads and the coming kid. Being preggo is 100% on the woman. Her body, hormones, life are all out of whack and in the worst case in trouble. The man can express his opinion all he wants, but at the end of the day, it should be a womans choice.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I have another question. Why do the folks here against abortion care about what someone does that they don't know?
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Trying to scientifically nail down when it is whatever it is, and label the action whatever is, and when its ok and when it isnt, etc is a waste of time and completely opinion.
Lets get to the nuts and bolts of it. We have several on here who have both had abortions and those who had situations where it would be up for comtemplation but did not. For those that did, was it a hard decision to make? Was\is there any guilt associated with it? For those who contemplated but did not, was it a hard decision? Do you feel you made the right decision for your life?
Ultimately all that matters is how we as humans feel about the actual action or innaction or actually making that decision for ourselves. I think if we put asside religious beliefs\anti-religious beliefs, our idealist opinions, and our one off examples we use to justify what we choose to subscribe to, we could get a much clearer/honest understanding.
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Swass
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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If you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one. Such an elegant solution.
Oh, wait...that's not good enough, is it? Only when you've imposed your morality on everyone else will you be happy. |
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chavez
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | chavez, I know you went through a horrible ordeal and it definitely showed you how evil a person can be. I'm not trying to bash on that and I hope you understand I am respectfully asking this.
If you watched the video how is it you justify what is seen on there as not being murder? I'm curious as to why you make the distinction. |
Gee, I don't know. Maybe it's because the unborn child is unborn. There is no life lived, no experiences had. No children mourning the loss of their mother, etc.
Let me be clear of this - I am vehemently opposed to late-term abortion. I think it is a barbaric and disgusting act. But, it is NOT murder.
Early term, up to the point at which the unborn child could breathe on their own (with or without the assistance of a ventilator), I don't really have a problem with. It should be the woman's choice, and whatever ramifications they have they will have to live with. Once the child is viable on the outside, there should be no turning back. There is ample time to make a decision in those first 4 months. After that, the process should play out and if the woman does not want the child, she should put it up for adoption.
The difference between you and I is there is no religious distinction in my views.
CB - Okie has a few kids.
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goofyboy
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Swass wrote: | If you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one. Such an elegant solution.
Oh, wait...that's not good enough, is it? Only when you've imposed your morality on everyone else will you be happy. |
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
count down to the "but the baby/human/tadpole" has no choice in the matter and we have to protect it against those with a different morality
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RampageWake
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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If you think murder is wrong, then don't commit one...
I am pro-choice, but I do see where people who believe it is murder have a right to their opinion. No benefit of discussing it on an interwebs thread though as peoples beliefs are usually pretty cemented one way or the other.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:15 am Post subject: |
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cameraboy, actually I have two boys...9 and 12.
Point taken by you and goofyboy...I guess you could look at it that way as not being 50/50. My main point is that the male still has some stake...it is still half his DNA and shouldn't he have a right to say he wants the child?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Why do the folks here against abortion care about what someone does that they don't know?
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If you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one. Such an elegant solution.
Oh, wait...that's not good enough, is it? Only when you've imposed your morality on everyone else will you be happy.
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Understood and I agree. While I like to share my belief or have a discussion in a venue like this, ultimately a person is going to do what they want to do and I'm fine with that.
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| chavez wrote: | | Okie Boarder wrote: | chavez, I know you went through a horrible ordeal and it definitely showed you how evil a person can be. I'm not trying to bash on that and I hope you understand I am respectfully asking this.
If you watched the video how is it you justify what is seen on there as not being murder? I'm curious as to why you make the distinction. |
Gee, I don't know. Maybe it's because the unborn child is unborn. There is no life lived, no experiences had. No children mourning the loss of their mother, etc.
Let me be clear of this - I am vehemently opposed to late-term abortion. I think it is a barbaric and disgusting act. But, it is NOT murder.
Early term, up to the point at which the unborn child could breathe on their own (with or without the assistance of a ventilator), I don't really have a problem with. It should be the woman's choice, and whatever ramifications they have they will have to live with. Once the child is viable on the outside, there should be no turning back. There is ample time to make a decision in those first 4 months. After that, the process should play out and if the woman does not want the child, she should put it up for adoption.
The difference between you and I is there is no religious distinction in my views.
CB - Okie has a few kids. |
Understood. Thanks for the answer. I would assume that applied to the scenario I asked MM about you would want to put the effort into saving the baby if it was past the point where it could breathe on its own and not do anything if it was earlier than that point...would that be correct?
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Okie Boarder
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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So, some of the answers so far led me to another question and another scenario.
Let's say a woman pregnant with a child that is at 3 months gets raped and murdered. The man who committed the crime is caught and charged. He gets charged with rape and murder...2 counts of murder or 1?
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jason_ssr
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Okie Boarder wrote: | | My main point is that the male still has some stake...it is still half his DNA and shouldn't he have a right to say he wants the child? |
When science gets to the point that he could carry the baby to term and nurse, he should have the choice to keep the child and have it moved to him to carry. Until then, her call.
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Neognosis
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| Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | For those who contemplated but did not, was it a hard decision? Do you feel you made the right decision for your life? |
We decided not to have an abortion.
That was our decision, then a month later I was having a panic attack and BEGGING her to have one, then a short while later I was glad she dismissed my near incoherent rantings and ravings and did what we decided in the first place. And today, I am very glad that we had the baby, and I hope I'm not held accountable in the end for the complete but temporary panic I went through when I was changing my mind. and even if she agreed to it when I was all crazy, I don't know if I could have let her go through with it when all was said and about to be done.
| Quote: | | cameraboy, actually I have two boys...9 and 12. |
I think I knew but forgot about that. I just didn't see how a man with two kids could see pregnancy as a 50/50 thing.
| Quote: | | My main point is that the male still has some stake...it is still half his DNA and shouldn't he have a right to say he wants the child? |
This is another area where it is not black and white. If you think that the man should have 50% of the say in whether to have the child, does he also have 50% of the power to force a woman to have an abortion if she doesn't want one? It IS 1/2 his DNA, as you pointed out....
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