Sanctity of Life Sunday

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

STPHNSN23, I understand that point of view.

My question is more for those that are against abortion except in cases of rape. What is it that makes it "wrong" in all other cases, but when it is a rape it is now justifiable?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I imagine that the "justification" is that not only was it not the woman's choice to get pregnant, it wasn't even her choice to have intercourse. And the thought that she will see that rape every time she looks at her own child.

Add to that the idea that a group of cells recently implanted into the uterine wall isn't a "person," and it's easy to accept early term abortion in the case of rape.

Okie, you've stated that you think a fetus is a human being with the rights of a human being. Is that from the moment of conception? The morning after pill prevents an egg from implanting in the uterine wall, and expells it with a menstral flow, if I understand correctly.

Do you consider a group of cells still in the single digits even, not implanted in the uterine wall, to also be a human being?

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Interesting answer. Do you think it changes anything to consider giving the baby up for adoption rather than keep it, so it isn't that constant reminder for her of the negative? Also, that baby being adopted by a family could be a very big positive. couldn't it?

Yes, I consider it life from the moment of conception.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

DRAGON88 · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 10:03 am Post subject:

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

cameraboy, you're correct. There is a point in time where I consider it "life" and a point in time I consider it "human". You could argue a distinction and maybe that is a personal point of reference for justifying certain actions.

Here's something to consider that I see and question with your finger versus fetus argument. If you planted finger cells and fetus cells (or zygote if that's the term you want to use), after a period of time, which one will develop into a human being?

DRAGON88, my wife and I have actually talked about that very scenario. Yes, I would want her to carry the baby, but I would also let her make the final choice as to what she wanted to do. That is the agreement we have. If she decided to carry the baby and there were complications, I would ensure she got the best possible medical treatment to take care of it. If there was a point in which they could only save her or the baby, there would be a decision to make. At that point I would likely favor her life over the baby's. What exactly did you have in mind as a complication that made it likely she would die from the pregnancy? Were you thinking of something specific?

I agree it isn't an easy decision to make, but I also feel there is a right and wrong to it that is straight forward enough to know what should be done, IMO...not everyone agrees with this or this wouldn't be a debate. Each person is ultimately going to make up their own mind and what they choose is their choice. I agree with letting that choice fall onto the individual, but I do also agree with educating people to have a full understanding of what that choice entails.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Yep, you could say it that way.

Preventing the implantation does have a distinct difference over terminating an already developing fetus. But, you are still preventing the life to continue on (whatever you consider it or call it at that point), so I don't think it is the right choice. Consciously and purposefully ending that life...not something I would choose to do and feel good about.

To me, it's kind of like killing another grown human being. If you plan out and murder someone (Murder 1), or you happen to have a car accident that results in a death, your actions still caused killed another person. There are distinctions between the two and we justify one over the other, but the end result is still the termination of a life in both cases. A similar argument can be made about killing someone in self defense.

jryoung · Ladies Man Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose

I wonder why those opposed to Plan B....or the "prevention of implantation" aren't protesting at infertility clinics and the thousands of blastocysts that are terminated/wasted/sent to Baby Jesus.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

My curiosity comes that most pro-lifers are pro-death penalty and most pro-choice are anti-death penalty. I find an inconsistency on both sides. I'm agnostic on this subject as I've never been in the position to need to make these decisions and am not willing to tell those who are what decision to make.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

It's not an inconsistency. The people who are pro-choice and anti death penalty:

1- often are not "pro abortion" and often would not consider having one. They just don't think it should be a gov't decision
2- They also see a grown human being as distinctly different from a fetus or zygote, at varying stages.

so it is not really inconsistant at all.

Nooga678 · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject:

Okie Boarder, What are your views on in-vitro when they fertilize multiple eggs and only put the "best" two or three back in the womb? Are the remainder aborted?
(also I could be wrong on them fertilizing more eggs than they plan to put back, so it is possibly a hypothetical question)

jryoung · Ladies Man Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose

Not a hypothetical, multiple eggs retrieved, multiple fertilied, the select few are implanted and the rest are frozen, donated, or destroyed.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

microman · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject:

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Whoa...a MM resurgance.

I dunno...I guess you could say that. I am personally pro-life and don't agree with abortion. But, I also don't necessarily agree with laws against abortion. There just doesn't seem to be any justification to terminate that life that seems reasonable enough for me to support it.

microman · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

jason_ssr · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject:

Everyone knows abortion is wrong. Nobody wants one and nobody looks forward to having it done. Nobody "likes" abortion. The question is should it be available, and the answer is yes. Banning it bans it from people who truly need it for medical reasons and extreme circumstance. The sad thing is that keeping it legal has turned it into convienence birth control.

Its funny how our opinion changes as we age. Young people are generally very pro-choice. Why? Its because they can relate and its their demographic who are having the most. They know what its like to be uncomfortable acquiring preventative measures at 15. They know what its like to have pregnancy fears change their entire outlook on the future. They need the reassurance that it can be made to go away.

Young adults tend to be indifferent. They are old enough not to be uncomfortable preventing pregnancy. It doesnt really affect them one way or another, but they dont care if others have that option or dont.

The biggest change is when you become a parent yourself. It isnt until then that you realize that a human at any stage in development is greater than the sum of their cellular makeup. Religion asside, their creation is a bigger event than just some scientific occurance and as a parent you discover that. Just because an individual did not take the time to learn this from their creation does not mean that child did not have it to share. one then realizes that the circumstances of that childs entry into the world pale in comparison to the joy they bring.

Ive heard alot of parents regret the timing or circumstance of their pregnancy, but Ive never heard a single parent regret their young child.

Funny, I was obviously raised pro-life, but it wasnt until I had a child myself that I had a strong opinion one way or the other.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

cameraboy, I understand your point that there may be a difference in response between a couple that really wants a baby and one that doesn't. But do you really think that even a person that didn't want to have a baby would be fine seeing and early stage fetus just treated like a piece of garbage and wouldn't be emotionally affected by it?

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

cameraboy, note the "I" in my statement. I wasn't making an argument but a qualitative statement, which by nature are highly subjective. You may not see the inconsistencies but from my POV both sides are inconsistent, in this subject area I find it hardly worth arguing as all the statements are qualitative.

microman · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject:

jryoung · Ladies Man Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 7664 City: Man Jose

Hey, Microman....I saw this on facebook today and thought of you [/backtoyourregularscheduledprogram]

microman · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject:

jryoung, heh. Geez, it's *only* been 8 years since they last played a postseason game.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

microman, I understand the point you're making and I do see it as black and white. I guess deep down I would prefer it was illegal. Maybe the reason I don't fight that front is I know it is a losing battle and I see validity in people making the choice on their own. Are we supposed to legislate morality?

RampageWake · Posted: Jan 23, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject:

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

LOL! Nice.

goofyboy · Posted: Jan 24, 2012 4:29 am Post subject:

Okie for President! HA!

How would you guys feel about this going back to a states issue?? It would immediately overturn Roe v Wade, as that is a federal law. Each state can make up its own mind, decided by that states population. Its much easier to leave a state that you don't agree with than your country.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

I'm thinking maybe I should clarify. I see the abortion itself as wrong and very black & white. How to legislate it is different story. Similarly, I see killing as wrong, but how you legislate is different there too. We don't have laws that treat someone who commits premeditated murder and someone who killed an intruder in self defense that treat both equally or carry equal punishments. Yet, in the end, both scenarios ended a life.

Goofyboy...I think turning a lot of issues back to the states is one of the best solutions.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

By the way, for those of you who don't agree with it being a human being like I do at a certain point, remind me again as to when you consider it a human being.

goofyboy · Posted: Jan 24, 2012 5:28 am Post subject:

Someone mentioned earlier that becoming a parent changes your views on this. I used to say when it had eyes and a brain, something more than a heart beat. When my wife showed me the positive pregnancy test, that opinion changed. I would say after the cells implant, which is when you can tell she is preggo. I have no issue with the morning after pill, not allowing implant of the cells.

That said, I am still prochoice, but I want it out of the federal government. As you have said, you can't legislate morality. People will still get abortions, legal or not. Wealthy people can fly to another country. The poor are the ones that would be more affected by abortion being illegal.

Rhawn · Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:15 am Post subject:

I wish there was ignore feature on this board. Keep trying to shove your beliefs down everyone's throat Okie, it will ̶n̶̶e̶̶v̶̶e̶̶r̶ work someday!

brew · Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:42 am Post subject:

I tend to fall right in line with what jason ssr said. My views changed substantially when I had a child. I was always against abortion, but now I'm further out on that limb.

The whole rape discussion is a useless argument. How many abortions in the US are a result of rape? It's just a way to sensationalize the discussion when you are talking about a portion of the population that doesn't even register.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond