Sanctity of Life Sunday

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

It's not a quandary for me.

How have courts decided? I'm betting that they have decided that a man cannot force a woman to carry a child to term if she doesn't want to.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Yup, the courts have ruled that way. Similarly, courts rule more in favor of the mother than the father in custody cases, much of the time. I have a couple friends who deal with this. What about the man's rights with the child, huh?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

The rulings on divorce and custody are lagging behind the times.

Most of the divorce and custody rules, and child support and alimony law made sense in the 50's, 60's 70's, and maybe a little in the 80's. Now that women are just as, if not more, capable of supporting themselves and most households are double income, they need to change to reflect these things.

microman · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:15 am Post subject:

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

cameraboy, I think there is more than just the financial aspect that should be considered, as well.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

What else should be considered besides financial information when we are talking about child support and alimony?

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 10:17 am Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

brew, you are right, the difference is actual vs potential. The actual carries a hell of a lot more weight in my book. There are real, tangible, and lasting consequences to removing an adult - a mother, father, brother, sister, child, etc. Potential is just pie in the sky - it's not real.

You say "you have" - and that's the thing - you want to have the child vs a woman who does not. I guarandamntee you while you are looking at the US and going "awwww", the woman who wants the abortion is going "oh sh*t".

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Ah, indeed.

What else do you think should be considered in custody issues? Obvious things like history of abuse, criminal record, etc.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

It isn't so much what is considered, but how. A particular friend of mine has gone through this with custody of his daughter. I'll just say that the mom virtually has to be a crack head for the daughter to go full custody or even more than 50% to the dad. Why does it favor the mother even when the father is able to provide a more stable household (again, not from a financial stand point)?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Yes, it is very difficult and unusual for a father to get full custody if the mother contests it.

It favors the mother even when the father is able to provide a more stable household because of the stereotype that mothers are better caregivers and nurturers.

and to my own detriment, perhaps, I do think that a young child under the age of, say, 6 or so needs to be with their mother more than their father. But I can't back this up with anything substantial.

Another factor is probably that, for years, fathers went away to work while mothers stayed home with the children.

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 11:47 am Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject:

No one said they all had amazing potential. If you go back to the beginning of the string of questions it was in reference to the difference between murder and abortion.

I'm not going to address the masturbation part because it's no different then a women's cycle. It doesn't become a discussable point until there is conception in my opinion. Then I guess the larger discussion results in when each person thinks you have life.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject:

microman · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 1:34 pm Post subject:

So, are those who are so strongly against abortion willing to have their taxes increased to support the excess of unwanted children, including those born with severe disabilities who require a great deal of resources devoted to their care? I haven't heard anyone say they would support an expansion of social programs, other than to suggest that adoption will fill the void. Which is essentially a non-starter since we know that no one is going to adopt all these children.

When you consider that roughly 30% of all pregnancies are terminated, that's a lot of extra children to have to pay for. And despite the belief that women use abortion as a means of birth control, there is no evidence to support that. So it's unlikely that restrictions on abortion are going to mean significantly fewer pregnancies overall. Someone will have to pay.

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject:

microman · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject:

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject:

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

cameraboy, I would say conception IS life and pre-conception has the potential to become life. That's the way I see it and where I draw my line.

Also, in the case of the hypotheticals I gave, I would want to try to save the fetus whether it was 12 weeks or 39 weeks and I would want to see the rapist/murderer charged with two counts of murder. The reason I asked those questions, which I'm sure some of you figured out (explaining the lack of answers), is that I've had this conversation in person before (I know...shocking, huh?). Almost everyone I've met that thinks life is only after third trimester or just after birth, say they would still go to great lengths to save a baby younger than that and they would want to see the rapist/murderer charged with two counts of murder. That seems inconsistent to me and if a person is OK with terminating what they don't consider a life, why be willing to consider it a life in the other scenarios. It's just a discussion point and still the person believes what they believe, and I respect that, but just doesn't jive to me.

Like I said earlier, it is black and white in my belief and I would not have an abortion myself (if I was female). I would also strongly urge a female I got pregnant to do the same.

Maybe black and white isn't the right term, but cut and dry is? I dunno.

The way society looks at it and the way our Constitution is written, it doesn't seem like a law against it is beneficial...one of those things better left up to the individual. That's why I'm not storming an abortion clinic and demanding they be shut down. I do take steps to ensure I don't support them, though.

chavez · RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006

Swass · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Oct 2011 Posts: 427

Can anyone explain the burning desire to force everyone, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) to adopt your morality? If your god tells you that abortion is a sin, and you choose not to have one based on those grounds, why isn't that enough for you? Does that not leave you in good standing with your god? Why do I also have to be in good standing with your god (one that I don't believe in) to satisfy you?

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject:

According to the numbers I lookied at, it was 14.4% in TN in 2009. New York and California definitely skew the numbers as they both have the highest rates of live births (about 7 times what TN has) along with the greatest percentage of abortions (31.1% and 28.0%.) Most of the Southern states outside of FL are below 15% with several actually being in single digits.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

brew · Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

would you be as complacent if it there were some legal means to kill two year olds, and so they were killing two year old children that the parents didn't want daily?

I would not suffer a law that was that drastically wrong, and would not allow this to go on while I did virtually nothing.

But those of you who claim that there is not a difference between a 1st trimester fetus and an infant, those of you who claim it is still the same level of murder, are disingenuous at best if you don't do all you can, even above the law, to stop it right now.

Okie Boarder · Ladies Man Joined: 03 Mar 2008 Posts: 10056 City: Edmond

So, give a suggestion as to what action to take?

jason_ssr · Posted: Jan 26, 2012 5:14 am Post subject:

Swass · Soul Rider Joined: 27 Oct 2011 Posts: 427

I appreciate the thoughtful response, Jason. Claiming that there's no religious component to this argument is disingenuous at best.