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1985 Supra Comp - Issues
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: 1985 Supra Comp - Issues Reply with quote

Hi all!

I was just curious to find out what the weight of my 1985 Comp TS6M would be?

I have been having some issues with the boat being "sluggish" out of the hole shot, and I know the motor does run well with all the new parts I threw at it. The engine runs smooth, but I find it really sluggish when trying to pull someone out of the water.

My thinking is that I had an issue where the rivets holding the deck and hull let go on the starboard rear side of the boat. For a while we did not know about this and would have to bilge out the boat frequently (alot). When making corners the deck/hull would open up a gap and water would come through there. Do you think the foam in the rear section of the boat has become water logged and is adding additional weight??? And if so, what is the best way to tackle a project like that.

Also, for engine timing, is anyone running advanced timing (from the stock 10 degrees)? Did you notice and response differences? I am curious if that could be causing a sluggish start as well. I only run 87 octane in her now.

Any information is appreciated!! Photos will give you an idea of how it sits in the water.

EDIT: Just FYI. Engine is a 351 W w/ a Holley 4 bbl carb (vacuum secondaries).


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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And as a second thought...

I have had issues with my vacuum secondaries on this boat. Had the motor cover off and did a hole shot, secondaries never seemed to open up.

Is a full mechanical worth any extra? OR what could cause the secondaries to not open up.
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ridininmd
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So there is no roughness just a general lack of power?

Old race car trick on the secondaries is put a paperclip into the rod, then when you run you can see for sure if they opened and how far. They won't open if you're free reving the motor.

What do you know about the prop on the boat? Has the sluggishness always been there or is this a new issue?
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No roughness at all. The motor runs smooth at idle and sounds great, but when it comes time to yank a skier out of the water (a good load), I to have to hammer the throttle full even to get 1 skier out of the water. I hear people talking about pulling 2 or 3 skiers out of the water....not with this thing!

The sluggishness has always been somewhat of an issue. A friend has the same boat and when he pulled me on my slalom ski, out of the hole my arms felt like they were being torn off. I recently had a stock style distributor replaced on it, and it is set back at the stock 10*.
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Nor*Cal
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this has always been an issue and things run smoothly, maybe you are propped wrong?
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ridininmd
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nor*Cal wrote:
If this has always been an issue and things run smoothly, maybe you are propped wrong?

yeah this is what I was thinking too. Maybe the PO bent a prop and just threw whatever was laying around to get it sold.

What kind of top end speed do you have?
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can get to ~40-41 mph, but I dont'remember what the RPM's might be at, unfortunately I'd have to wait until spring for that answer! I might have a picture of the prop on my other computer, not sure if you can tell much by the look of it.

I do recall that when the guys in the shop were working on the boat they had to separate the block/bellhouse and the motor kicked over when they were separated (ie. misaligned by a fair amount). Just thought of that when you mention the bent prop.
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Nor*Cal
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The alignment issue has been fixed?

Could be a sign of a prop strike and new prop that isn't ideal.

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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah the boys re-aligned the motor and trans. Apparently when they separated the two, the motor almost sprung sideways...must of been way out. I can't find the photo of the prop, must of deleted it.
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ridininmd
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how are your stringers?
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^Good question LOL anything in the centre section of the boat visually looks great, I can't tell whats under neath the floor.

Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The secondaries on a carb don't really effect pulling up skiers, they only come into effect above 3500-4000 rpm. They have a large effect on top speed though. As mentioned abave, I think your problem may be the pitch of the prop, it is very important for initial power. Can you get the part number/pitch off it?
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ridininmd
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put a wrench on the motor mount bolts and try and tighten them, if they spin you've probably got rotten stringers. That wouldn't really cover the weak hole shot but it could explain the misalignment between the motor and trans. Soft spots in the floor would also point towards rotten stringers, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I'm still leaning towards the prop being the issue out of the hole.
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. Investigate prop as a good possibility for hole shot issues but definitely check up on rot and water intrusion/containment.
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 18, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats great info guys, I will have to take a run to the storage yard to have a look at the prop. Where do they usually stamp the markings, in the bore? Or is it on the outside of the prop.

Is it worth switching to a 4 blade prop to help the hole shot if this prop is jsut a random selection?
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also starting to read a lot of positives about the OJ 3 blade 13x11.5 props, greatly improves hole shots for boats like mine, and keeps the top end. Anyone ever use these?
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XMP or Legend?

I'd get someone who knows inboards out and go for a ride. It's really hard to understand just how severe your issues are.

I believe you should have your carb rebuilt.

It shouldn't have any trouble at all coming out of the hole, even with soaked foam and a not-so-perfect prop. A severe misalignment will destroy your transmission, but again shouldn't give you the trouble you're describing. If the timing gives you easy starts, and raps up ok w/o a load I'd leave it there. I really think you have a fuel(carb) issue.

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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ I had the carb rebuilt by a reputable shop up here near Toronto.

Are full mechanical carbs better for out of the hole performance? I assume vacuum secondary style carbs are for better fuel economy. Opinions?

I also attached photos of the prop. Don't think it is stock. Looks like it is 13x12 (not sure on up size, take a look.)



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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also jsut found an original PCM owners manual stating that the plugs should be gapped at .035", timing set at 10* and fuel should be 89 or 91 octane.

Right now the plugs are gapped at .040", timing is at 10* and i only run 87 octane.

Minor performance issue?
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would regap the plugs at .035 and run 89. Still not enough to be a major factor however. The prop is fine, clearly not the original prop, or shaft, but again not a problem. Who installed and tuned the carburetor? I still think this is your issue, and stick with the vacuum secondaries.
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll switch the gaps in the spring once this damn col weather goes away!

The carb was rebuilt by Specialty Carburetors in Toronto. They had it on a flow bench to measure cfm and set it back to base settings. I put the carb back on the boat.

If it is the carb, I can only assume it must be running a bit lean as it never puts out any black smoke from the exhaust. Purrs like a kitten at idle and does run smooth during the RPM band. Only other issue I have had in the past is vapour lock on warmer days.
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vette74
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigkitch, Take a pic of your spark plugs (electrode end) with a lot of light on them so we can see.
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vette74
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also what is your timing when you are at 2500 rpm. I will be willing to bet your mechanical advance is stuck.
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vette74 wrote:
bigkitch, Take a pic of your spark plugs (electrode end) with a lot of light on them so we can see.


I will have to do this on a warmer day, boat is under a tarp...under snow lol

But if the mechanical advance was stuck, wouldn't it sputter? It is a fairly new distributor, maybe 4 years old?
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vette74
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigkitch wrote:
vette74 wrote:
bigkitch, Take a pic of your spark plugs (electrode end) with a lot of light on them so we can see.


I will have to do this on a warmer day, boat is under a tarp...under snow lol

But if the mechanical advance was stuck, wouldn't it sputter? It is a fairly new distributor, maybe 4 years old?
Not necessarily in my old boat someone put an 80's electronic distributor without a computer on it so the timing was stuck. Same issue it idled great but under load out of the hole it had no power. Put timing light on gave it some gas and didn't move one bit. Bought a distributor on ebay and it worked like a champ. I have also seen centrifical weights inside the distributor get stuck due to moisture.
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original owner had a MSD billet distributor on it that was off of a 351 out of an old Stang. I had it replaced with a proper Mallory marine distributor with mechanical advance. I assume this whole issue is down to timing and air/fuel?

Once the warmer weather comes I will have to get the boat out of storage and put a light on it and see what degree its sitting at, and also re-gap my plugs back down to spec. If that doesn't do anything then it must be an issue with the carb! Possibly a lack of air?
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PostPosted: Jan 21, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could he also be looking at a power valve issue in the carb?
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PostPosted: Jan 23, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, your symptoms describe a lean condition. You should still adjust your carburetor on your engine after the rebuild. Do a Google search or buy a Holley book, it's pretty easy. For now we can check some things though.

Check for vacuum leak:
Is the carburetor installed tight, new gasket, no vacuum leaks around the base? Spray some WD-40 around the base of the carb while it is idling. The engine will change sound as it burns any WD-40 that gets through.

Check accelerator pump circuit:
Get the boat running, and warmed up. Does it accelerate ok withough a skier? Do a lazy run up and also a hard one. Does hesitate? Shut the boat down, take the air cleaner off. Does it squirt fuel down the front to barrels (under the choke plate) when you move the throttle?

Ignition System:
What plugs are you using? Take a picture of your plugs while you're regapping them to .035. Are the tips white, beige, black?

Remove the cap and make sure that o-ring is seated properly, and reinstall the cap. Make sure it sits tight.

What coil are you using?

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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Mar 20, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the warmer weather is coming here and I will be looking into all of these issues soon once I get the boat back from storage!

Just out of curiosity, would you guys suggest I drain the fuel before doing anything to the boat? I put it away in November in 2010 and it hasn't moved since, I did put stabilizer in it and fog the carb and cylinders...any suggestions prior to firing her up?
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PostPosted: Mar 20, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before you go through the trouble of draining it, just run a 5 gallon can with fresh fuel. Get it running right with that, then use your old fuel. If you start having problems again, pump out the old fuel.

Many times, people think the old fuel is the culprit for engine problems. Run some fresh fuel, and see if that fixes it. If it does, there's your problem. If not, keep working, using the good fuel, then switch to the tank.
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PostPosted: Mar 20, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reprop,it makes a world of difference. acme 543 13x 11
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Apr 12, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okie Boarder wrote:
Could he also be looking at a power valve issue in the carb?


I keep wondering about this. The major problem is when the boat is under load. I should clarify that it isn't horrible, but if I was to put a couple of people in the boat plus someone on a slalom (deep water start) it isn't "quick". Haven't pulled the boat out yet and gapped the plugs yet or checked timing. Could this be related to anything else?


Last edited by bigkitch on Apr 14, 2012 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Apr 14, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are the photos of 3 plugs selected at random. Running a little rich? (sorry for the crap picture quality)





I think I am going to start looking into the timing as vette said above! But I must of read the manual as I gapped these at .036" which is close to spec, but they are NGK R's...worth while to switch these back to motor craft?

Also, the coil I have on the ignition system is a Accel Coil (below) from Part Source (equiv. to say Auto Zone here in Canada). It is about 6 year old. Trash it and get a proper one?



And here is the distributor I have on it.

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vette74
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PostPosted: Apr 15, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plugs look a little rich but not that bad you want go for a light brown color. The problem with reading plugs is that they are like a dry erase board they only read what the last engine cycle was doing. You need to read the plugs when the problem was happening.
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bigkitch
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PostPosted: Apr 15, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok good to know. I think that once I get the boat out of storage I am going to check the timing as it may be set to base 10 degrees but total timing may not have been set.

If I remember correctly, these pcm 351's should be at 10* base but 25-29* total, but what rpm. 3,000?
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