|
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Wakebrad
Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 12257
City: Dallas
|
 Posted: Jan 27, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: Blackjack - Card Counting |
 |
|
I'm headed to Vegas in March and finally decided I would like to improve my odds at the table. I downloaded the free card-counting app for the iPhone and have been playing with that for the last few days.
I thought I was getting pretty fast until I read a proficient counter should be able to go through 2 decks of cards in 40 seconds! I can currently go through a single deck in 40 seconds (1 at a time).
Does anyone else around here count, have any insight/stories?
_________________
You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1496
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Yeah I know all the ins and outs of blackjack and used to go to the casino a lot... borderline addiction... I'll tell you right up front, card counting only gives you the slightest bit of advantage that can really only be realized after years of playing and thousands of hands played. Winnings determined during a weekend in Vegas will be based purely on luck, don't spend too much time studying. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dragonlady8
Black Widow
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 9198
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1496
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here is one of my favorite sites from when I used to go a lot... you can spend days reading the wealth of knowledge here:
http://wizardofodds.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad
Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 12257
City: Dallas
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Faust, yeah, you're probably right, but at the same time it would be nice to have a little bit of extra info so at least you're not making dumb moves, increasing your bet when the count is awful, or hitting on a questionable card when the count is good.
Dragonlady8, yeah, I saw that app. I wasn't planning on using that. I think that is actually illegal, to use a device to count (stated in the link). The app I'm using is just for training purposes. Although it would be nice to just tally the face cards per round and have it all done for you.
_________________
You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1496
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wakebrad wrote: | | it would be nice to have a little bit of extra info so at least you're not making dumb moves, increasing your bet when the count is awful, or hitting on a questionable card when the count is good. |
To this I say it depends... if you are thinking of starting to play blackjack a lot, then you should learn the extra info... but for just a weekend where you want to have fun, ignorance is bliss. In fact some of the best moments are when you unknowingly win a hand where the odds are against you. Otherwise you start expecting to win a hand where there is really only a 1% advantage, you lose the hand, it happens again, it starts snowballing, and you turn into an emotional wreck.  And there goes the weekend. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eich82
Addict
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 860
City: MTP
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Faust wrote: | | Wakebrad wrote: | | it would be nice to have a little bit of extra info so at least you're not making dumb moves, increasing your bet when the count is awful, or hitting on a questionable card when the count is good. |
To this I say it depends... if you are thinking of starting to play blackjack a lot, then you should learn the extra info... but for just a weekend where you want to have fun, ignorance is bliss. In fact some of the best moments are when you unknowingly win a hand where the odds are against you. Otherwise you start expecting to win a hand where there is really only a 1% advantage, you lose the hand, it happens again, it starts snowballing, and you turn into an emotional wreck. And there goes the weekend. |
This.
Basic strategy is all you need to know. The amount of time spent trying to develop your counting skills is a waste. Unless you're planning on playing millions of hands to eliminate the variance on the tiny edge that you're getting by counting, you might as well just enjoy your time.
One of the most fun trips I had in vegas was when my buddy drunkenly doubled a hard 12 on accident, hit a 9, and then proceeded to do it every hand the rest of the trip. The dealer had to yell it out every time he did it, which invoked strange looks, but I'll be damned if he didn't win 90% of the hands he did it on.
With gambling, it's all about the variance. If you don't have the edge, you're hoping for it, if you do, you need to play enough to make the edge play out in your favor. Gambling is just entertainment, you'll have more fun just playing and having a good time, rather than trying to count and make money. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BrentC5Z
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
Posts: 1436
City: Tulsa
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
<---- Awaiting the inevitable Rain Man/Hangover reply...
My dad plays a LOT. I've sat with him before and notice he spends more time being concerned about what the dealer is showing than keeping up with the cards played. This may be very elementary but seems effective for him.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/greasemonkeytv |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad
Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 12257
City: Dallas
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
For me, it's kind of backwards. I get frustrated when I play blindly because I feel like there's information out there I could use, and I'm blind to it. So when I increase my bet and I lose I'm like "dammit, the count was probably awful." Where if I have an idea of what it is, I can say "well, that's just the odds, I did everything I could."
I'm not a big fan of blackjack anyway. I've only walked away from a table up once in my life, it was nice that I was up big when I left. But that one time I was also following the lead of a friend of mine who was at least attempting to count. Has his PHD from MIT so I assume he was ok at it, haha.
So I'm going to practice up for the next month and give 'er a go. I'll probably get so distracted I'll give up in the first 5 hands, but it's a challenge I'm looking forward to. I'm not trying to beat the system, or take the casino for a bunch of money. Just trying to improve my odds on the $3-400 I'll throw at the Blackjack table.
_________________
You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
htownbdr
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 1460
City: Austin
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
My system...However stupid it is...Is to bet in intervals in streaks. So, if you bet 20 and win, then bet 30, then 40 then 50, etc. As soon as you lose pull back to your original bet. This is where it gets stupid....If I lose 3 in a row, I will almost always bet about 5 times my original bet on the next one. I figured, you have lost that many in a row, you are due.
When this works out, I win. When it doesn't, I lose.
Also, I know its oxymoronic...But, drinking helps me. A lot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
htownbdr
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 1460
City: Austin
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oh yeah...One last part of my system. This is where it REALLY gets stupid. The very last hand of the trip, I will almost always put all my winnings on one hand. This is usually because I am going after a watch or purse for my wife or something like that and if I win, I can do it. If I don't, then not that big of a deal because it was their money.
For this one hand, I will sit at a table. play small until I lose 3 or 4 in a row and then put that bet down.
May not be the best way to do things. But, I have a great time. May help to know that I am gambling for entertainment so the money I take I count as lost before I even get there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ohsix
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 6837
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
htownbdr, we share the same strategy. It seems like you win and lose in streaks. When I win, I leave 1/2 my winnings in for the next hand and so on, when I lose go back to the minimum. If the dealer hasn't busted in a while, bet big until they do. In the occasional event that I leave the blackjack table up, I'll bet the winnings on red or black at the first roulette wheel.
Wakebrad, about half the places in Vegas now use automatic shoes which means there is no end and no beginning to a shoe which make it impossible to count. The places that still use a normal shoe know how to spot card counters. Card counters will come in towards the end of a shoe or start betting bigger towards the end of a shoe. If you're just learning so you'll know when to hit or stay on hard 13+ it won't make a difference. Just hope you don't get some guy at the table that thinks you're screwing up his cards by staying on 14 against a 10 when the count shows mostly 10s left in the shoe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TnR6Rida
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 4905
City: West TN
|
| Posted: Jan 27, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Love playing blackjak. I like to play the tables that have the poker hand along with it. I left the casino up $500 last time I went.
I don't try to count or anything, but I have thought about trying to learn it. Let us know how it goes for you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad
Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 12257
City: Dallas
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Wakebrad, about half the places in Vegas now use automatic shoes which means there is no end and no beginning to a shoe which make it impossible to count. The places that still use a normal shoe know how to spot card counters. Card counters will come in towards the end of a shoe or start betting bigger towards the end of a shoe. If you're just learning so you'll know when to hit or stay on hard 13+ it won't make a difference. Just hope you don't get some guy at the table that thinks you're screwing up his cards by staying on 14 against a 10 when the count shows mostly 10s left in the shoe. |
Automatic shoes would throw off the true count, but there's still value in the running count. Bottom line is there's info out there that can help you, and I'd like to at least give it a shot at using it.
_________________
You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eeven73
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 5377
City: Halfway
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
continuous shuffler = no benefit to counting
_________________
Is President Obama a Keynesian? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JV
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 3881
City: San Diego
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
What's the verdict on doubling down a soft 18-20 or splitting two face cards when the dealer is showing a 6 or less?
I do it all the time and always get groans from the people I'm playing with, but it ALWAYS works. Sure, you're risking an almost sure win, but that's why it's called gambling. Doing the math, it sure seems like the odds are with doubling up.
I play the cliche "always assume the dealer is hiding a 10" which everyone says not to use, but I've never not come out ahead. Granted, I play slow and steady, but I'll take $200 after 2 hours any day. The only time I raise the minimum bet is on "feel" which I guess is card counting in a sense, just not actively. Just being smart enough to realize there's been a lot of junk thrown out in recent hands.
_________________
"I'm scared if I stop drinking all at once, the cumulative hangover will literally kill me." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
htownbdr
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 1460
City: Austin
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
I can see your point. But, I don't ever do it.
And, if someone did that while I was playing and the dealer was showing a 6, I would either start F%^king with them or leave...Depending on how much I had out there or what kind of mood I was in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eich82
Addict
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 860
City: MTP
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| htownbdr wrote: | I can see your point. But, I don't ever do it.
And, if someone did that while I was playing and the dealer was showing a 6, I would either start F%^king with them or leave...Depending on how much I had out there or what kind of mood I was in. |
This. I don't really get too upset with people who don't use basic strategy, but a lot of that depends on how much everyone is betting. If I'm ever in a situation where you could go either way, I'll defer to anyone that has a fat stack out on the hand.
And I do get pissed at the dumby wumby who doesn't have a clue how to play, doesn't want to ask for help, that stays on his 12 against a dealer's face, because he doesn't want to bust on his $5 bet, meanwhile I've got 50-100 on the table, and the dealer pulls a card to make a hand or I get a crap card on my double down.
Always defer to the big stack on the table if you're not sure what to do, or if you want to do something overly aggressive (or stupid). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1496
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JV wrote: | | What's the verdict on doubling down a soft 18-20 or splitting two face cards when the dealer is showing a 6 or less? |
A-7, double when dealer is showing 2 through 6. stand on 7 and 8. otherwise hit.
A-8, only double if dealer is showing a 6.
A-9, always stay.
| Quote: | | I'll take $200 after 2 hours any day |
Then go do it full time.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JV
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 3881
City: San Diego
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Excuse the ignorance, but I don't get that. Aren't I just as likely (if not more so) to use up some of the junk and leave you with what you want than vice versa?
_________________
"I'm scared if I stop drinking all at once, the cumulative hangover will literally kill me." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JV
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 3881
City: San Diego
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Faust wrote: | | JV wrote: | | I'll take $200 after 2 hours any day |
Then go do it full time. |
I've only played about a dozen times in my life. Once I got up big, lost it all, and got back to even. All the other times I've come out up at least $100. Not sure that is enough of a sampling to say I'm "good" at blackjack Just that I've been lucky so far, and, most importantly, I hate losing money so much that I can easily walk away when I'm slightly ahead, instead of getting crazy, falling in the red, and trying to chase it back.
I actually have thought about it though. Say you took $100 into a casino at 9AM every morning. If you bust, you leave and go home. If you get above $200, $300, $400, etc. you immediately leave if you fall $25 or more back below that figure. If you played slow and didn't get greedy, you could probably bank an average of $200 a day (some days you lose 100, other days you make 6) for a couple hours' work. That's more than enough to live in Vegas and have a siht ton of fun. Speaking of a year off from college plan...
_________________
"I'm scared if I stop drinking all at once, the cumulative hangover will literally kill me." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chavez
Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JV wrote: |
I play the cliche "always assume the dealer is hiding a 10" which everyone says not to use, but I've never not come out ahead. Granted, I play slow and steady, but I'll take $200 after 2 hours any day. The only time I raise the minimum bet is on "feel" which I guess is card counting in a sense, just not actively. Just being smart enough to realize there's been a lot of junk thrown out in recent hands. |
Who says not to play that way? I always assume the 10/face is there.
I've hit/split/double some dumbazz things while drunk. I've won a lot that way, but it wasn't smart (by the odds anyway).
When I play straight up I almost never lose. I've broken even a fair amount, but I typically don't go under.
I am also a slow/methodical player. One time, waaayyyyy back in the day (when I first moved to Vegas) I spent 4 hours on a dollar table, and ended dead even. I started with a $20 bill, ended pretty much schnockered and yes folks, I did tip my waitress.
_________________
| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Faust
Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1496
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JV wrote: | | I actually have thought about it though. Say you took $100 into a casino at 9AM every morning. If you bust, you leave and go home. If you get above $200, $300, $400, etc. you immediately leave if you fall $25 or more back below that figure. If you played slow and didn't get greedy, you could probably bank an average of $200 a day (some days you lose 100, other days you make 6) for a couple hours' work. That's more than enough to live in Vegas and have a siht ton of fun. Speaking of a year off from college plan... |
I've tried it... you'd be surprised how many times you first sit down, lose 20 hands in a row, and you're done for the day. The most I ever made in a night was $400 at a $10 table starting with $100. It's an incredibly hard thing to do and I almost never believe people that say they play blackjack professionally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wakebrad
Ladies Man
Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 12257
City: Dallas
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The odds are the odds. You can look at the card to find out when to split, when to stick on a 12, when to double. You can say "it just makes sense," but you're fighting against the odds.
| Quote: | | you'd be surprised how many times you first sit down, lose 20 hands in a row, and you're done for the day. |
This happens to me almost every time. I can't think of a single time I won the first hand.
| Quote: | | And I do get pissed at the dumby wumby who doesn't have a clue how to play, doesn't want to ask for help, that stays on his 12 against a dealer's face, because he doesn't want to bust on his $5 bet, meanwhile I've got 50-100 on the table |
If you're betting $100 on a $5 table you're asking for someone to mess up your hand. If you're betting that much with good cause - the count is good, you'd prefer that he not take one of those face cards off the deck.
_________________
You have just entered the twilight zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
eich82
Addict
Joined: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 860
City: MTP
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 2:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wakebrad wrote: | The odds are the odds. You can look at the card to find out when to split, when to stick on a 12, when to double. You can say "it just makes sense," but you're fighting against the odds.
| Quote: | | you'd be surprised how many times you first sit down, lose 20 hands in a row, and you're done for the day. |
This happens to me almost every time. I can't think of a single time I won the first hand.
| Quote: | | And I do get pissed at the dumby wumby who doesn't have a clue how to play, doesn't want to ask for help, that stays on his 12 against a dealer's face, because he doesn't want to bust on his $5 bet, meanwhile I've got 50-100 on the table |
If you're betting $100 on a $5 table you're asking for someone to mess up your hand. If you're betting that much with good cause - the count is good, you'd prefer that he not take one of those face cards off the deck. |
Sometimes you don't really have a choice. In vegas, yes, at an indian casino, not so much. Also I play a progressive strategy where I take my bet up a "unit" every hand I win until I lose then I go back to my starting bet. Therefore I like to play at a lower stake table (5-10) vs. higher min. (25+). That way I can survive the losing streaks better.
Also I fully realize that in the short run, that card that the asshat does/doesn't take may end up winning me the hand just as it may lose me the hand, the thing that pisses me off is simply the fact that it's disrespectful IMO to not defer to the larger betters at the table. Also if you don't really know how to play with basic strategy or if you want to play like a moron, go play on a video BJ machine. It's disrespectful to play a game that you have no idea how to play, when your play influences the outcome for other players. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chavez
Ladies Man
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 27375
City: Roseville
|
| Posted: Jan 28, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| eich82 wrote: |
Also I fully realize that in the short run, that card that the asshat does/doesn't take may end up winning me the hand just as it may lose me the hand, the thing that pisses me off is simply the fact that it's disrespectful IMO to not defer to the larger betters at the table. Also if you don't really know how to play with basic strategy or if you want to play like a moron, go play on a video BJ machine. It's disrespectful to play a game that you have no idea how to play, when your play influences the outcome for other players. |
Reasons why casinos will put as many chairs at a BJ table as will fit, sometimes more than will fit....
_________________
| Quote: | | That's Mr. Gingermex to you a$$hole. |
RIP MHL 04/25/1958 - 01/11/2006 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
brew
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 2778
City: Jackson
|
| Posted: Jan 29, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Also I fully realize that in the short run, that card that the asshat does/doesn't take may end up winning me the hand just as it may lose me the hand, the thing that pisses me off is simply the fact that it's disrespectful IMO to not defer to the larger betters at the table. Also if you don't really know how to play with basic strategy or if you want to play like a moron, go play on a video BJ machine. It's disrespectful to play a game that you have no idea how to play, when your play influences the outcome for other players. |
I always laugh at this philosophy and it's part of the reason I avoid table games for the most part. The way the guy next to you plays has no bearing on the outcome of your game. If he plays stupid, he's going to take some good cards on occassion and he's going to take stuff cards on occassion. I would bet over the course of the night it works out to fairly even. If I want to hit every 16 that comes up I'm going to get some 4's on occassion and I'm going to get some face cards on other occassions. If I want to double down my A-6 every time it comes up, I'll hit some and miss some and you'll get the cards you get.
It's no different than people jumping in and out of the table. Indirectly it affects you, but you're going to win some because of it and lose some because of it. It's a game of chance. There's no science to it unless your card counting which has been rendered useless for the most part. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TnR6Rida
Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 4905
City: West TN
|
| Posted: Feb 01, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Went to the casino this past Saturday. I put down $20, got $20 in chips and turned it into $425. I must say i think I did pretty damn well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
Add To Favorites
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Copyright © 2012 - Wakeboarding - Wakeboarder.com - All Right Reserved
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Stats
Favorites
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
