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W2W Pop Help

 
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HerdWake
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: W2W Pop Help Reply with quote

I think I need to stand taller at the wake but seem to be struggling with the fact of getting my legs straight...any help is appreciated.


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wakerook
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long you been riding for homey?
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hawkster0001
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, definetaky, and try adding 5-10' to your rope then taking a little wider cut, and give yourself more time to stand up.
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neverwinter
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hawkster, i really want to see a video of you riding because you give some awful advice on these forums! what on earth makes you think he'd go w2w better 5 or 10 feet out when it's completely relative???

herd, about the only thing I see you doing "wrong" is not standing tall at the top of the wake. hawkster would tell you to take really wide cut and get more speed which couldn't be further from the truth. your distance from the wake looks good. just make sure that your edge is progressive and that you stand tall at the top of the wake. pulling in and down on the rope will help you stay balanced.
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HerdWake
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses...I have been riding about a year, we recently just started riding consistently.
I believe I am at about 70' right now...I was cutting out further before to try and give myself more time on the approach but it wasn't helping me much. I found if I cut out about like I am in video and focus more on the edge I do a bit better, just have to figure out the standing tall without losing my edge.
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hawkster0001
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats why you cut faster at the start from way wide, then you pop, try a coulpe slow one wake ones, then add speed
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Chocoholic
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hawkster, again NO! You don't have to go 'way wide and cut faster' AT ALL!!

Herdwake, I notice you're running off a ski pole, which is going to make it harder anyway as you're not going to get the same 'upwards' movement that you might off a tower, plus your wake is little, but this is good for getting the knack of it.

So I'd actually say bring your rope in to 60-65 where the wake is a little more aggressive and practice your pop by not cutting out as far, you maybe only need to go a few metres - that's it. Then get your edge, pull the handle in and down to your lead hip, sink into your knees and as you hit the wake push everything downwards and stand tall - don't worry about your legs going straight or not, the emphasis here is getting pop.

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Chocoholic
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hawkster0001 wrote:
thats why you cut faster at the start from way wide, then you pop, try a coulpe slow one wake ones, then add speed


That's the cheats way of doing it and actually teaches bad technique!

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Vea
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PostPosted: Aug 24, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what I see is that your wait is on the back foot. Try to push off with your front foot more and you'll get more hight while your distance is already sorted.
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hawkster0001
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what board are you riding? heres one of my w2w'w


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HerdWake
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chocoholic wrote:
hawkster, again NO! You don't have to go 'way wide and cut faster' AT ALL!!

Herdwake, I notice you're running off a ski pole, which is going to make it harder anyway as you're not going to get the same 'upwards' movement that you might off a tower, plus your wake is little, but this is good for getting the knack of it.

So I'd actually say bring your rope in to 60-65 where the wake is a little more aggressive and practice your pop by not cutting out as far, you maybe only need to go a few metres - that's it. Then get your edge, pull the handle in and down to your lead hip, sink into your knees and as you hit the wake push everything downwards and stand tall - don't worry about your legs going straight or not, the emphasis here is getting pop.


Actually that is a tower with Maliview Camera that tracks with the line. The wake doesn't seem little to me. I am riding behind a 09 Wakesetter 247 with 50% Front Ballast 50% Center Ballast and 100% on the Left and Right Rear with 100% wedge. I guess there is a little room for a bigger wake.

So your saying standing tall is more pushing off the water rather than just straighting your body?
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LopsidedMidget
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neverwinter wrote:
hawkster, i really want to see a video of you riding because you give some awful advice on these forums! what on earth makes you think he'd go w2w better 5 or 10 feet out when it's completely relative???

herd, about the only thing I see you doing "wrong" is not standing tall at the top of the wake. hawkster would tell you to take really wide cut and get more speed which couldn't be further from the truth. your distance from the wake looks good. just make sure that your edge is progressive and that you stand tall at the top of the wake. pulling in and down on the rope will help you stay balanced.


This is definitely the most accurate way I have heard. Going out further will do nothing for your height. If anything, it will make the whole process a ton harder. As is, you have plenty of time to straighten your legs, and are doing so. You just need to work on your timing.

Also, in regards to your last post; standing tall is about putting pressure on both feet evenly and shoving down. I usually describe it as the same type of motion you use to launch someone on a trampoline. You'll feel it when you do it right. I would also suggest listening to neverwinter on here.. He seems to have the best advice.
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pet575
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerdWake, you're getting hit with a few different pieces of advice (some of it is conflicting) and I'm about to throw another one on the pile. Sorry.

What I see is two things:

1. The people above who suggest that you bend your knees less and stand taller at the wake are correct. You generate pop by not absorbing it with your knees. You also do NOT generate it solely with a wide cut and speed.

2. More importantly, you aren't really edging that hard and you are definitely not edging progressively as hard as you need to. You take your edge and just kind of maintain it heading into the wake. You need to edge a LOT harder as you go up the wake than you currently are. The people in the boat should be able to see the bottom of your board as you start to go up the wake (yes, you should be edging THAT hard) in order for you to generate good pop and height.

And you don't need a tower or a ski pole to pull decent pop. Yes it will help SOME, but the technique is the most important thing. There is some very old video out there of people pulling inverts from the low tow point on an unweighted boat. They have great technique and that is why they can do it.

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GnarShredd
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pet575 wrote:
HerdWake, you're getting hit with a few different pieces of advice (some of it is conflicting) and I'm about to throw another one on the pile. Sorry.

What I see is two things:

1. The people above who suggest that you bend your knees less and stand taller at the wake are correct. You generate pop by not absorbing it with your knees. You also do NOT generate it solely with a wide cut and speed.

2. More importantly, you aren't really edging that hard and you are definitely not edging progressively as hard as you need to. You take your edge and just kind of maintain it heading into the wake. You need to edge a LOT harder as you go up the wake than you currently are. The people in the boat should be able to see the bottom of your board as you start to go up the wake (yes, you should be edging THAT hard) in order for you to generate good pop and height.

And you don't need a tower or a ski pole to pull decent pop. Yes it will help SOME, but the technique is the most important thing. There is some very old video out there of people pulling inverts from the low tow point on an unweighted boat. They have great technique and that is why they can do it.


listen to that, all great advice.


As he was saying with the progressive edge. Start easy and work your way to your hardest edge being at the wake, it should progress smoothly (preogressive edge, see?) from your softest edge to your hardest.

Currently it looks like you have a good slow start (don't change that at all), then cut harder, then stop building your edge until you hit the wake and on top of that, you're absorbing the wake with your knees.

You also look like you're bending slightly at your hips. You want to keep your hips more forward. Keep your chest up a little more and that should solve it.
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Chocoholic
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PostPosted: Aug 25, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerdWake wrote:
Chocoholic wrote:
hawkster, again NO! You don't have to go 'way wide and cut faster' AT ALL!!

Herdwake, I notice you're running off a ski pole, which is going to make it harder anyway as you're not going to get the same 'upwards' movement that you might off a tower, plus your wake is little, but this is good for getting the knack of it.

So I'd actually say bring your rope in to 60-65 where the wake is a little more aggressive and practice your pop by not cutting out as far, you maybe only need to go a few metres - that's it. Then get your edge, pull the handle in and down to your lead hip, sink into your knees and as you hit the wake push everything downwards and stand tall - don't worry about your legs going straight or not, the emphasis here is getting pop.


Actually that is a tower with Maliview Camera that tracks with the line. The wake doesn't seem little to me. I am riding behind a 09 Wakesetter 247 with 50% Front Ballast 50% Center Ballast and 100% on the Left and Right Rear with 100% wedge. I guess there is a little room for a bigger wake.

So your saying standing tall is more pushing off the water rather than just straighting your body?


LOL ok it just looks that way because of the angle of the camera. Yes, actually pushing down with your legs or standing tall. Some people get away with actually doing this with only their front leg. It took me ages to get pop, but trial and error, because not everything works the same for everyone.

It's a hard thing to get used not to absorbing the pop with your knees. But as has been said, that edge going into the wake is crucial.

There will always be different pieces of advice being thrown around, because there are different methods of teaching, for example here we have coached that use Asian methods aswell as Western ones and it gets confusing at times, so very often it's down to trial and error and what works best for you. Confuses the hell outta me! lol

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da Liks
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PostPosted: Aug 26, 2010 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chocoholic wrote:
hawkster, again NO! You don't have to go 'way wide and cut faster' AT ALL!!

Herdwake, I notice you're running off a ski pole, which is going to make it harder anyway as you're not going to get the same 'upwards' movement that you might off a tower, plus your wake is little, but this is good for getting the knack of it.

So I'd actually say bring your rope in to 60-65 where the wake is a little more aggressive and practice your pop by not cutting out as far, you maybe only need to go a few metres - that's it. Then get your edge, pull the handle in and down to your lead hip, sink into your knees and as you hit the wake push everything downwards and stand tall - don't worry about your legs going straight or not, the emphasis here is getting pop.
+1, i have been wakeboarding for 1 month, like 6 times and already i am doing w2w 180's and some grabs on rope thats attached by the waterline.. simply because i learned the 3rd time out how to hold a PROGRESSIVE edge allll the way to the top of the wake and stand up on time. you dont get extra pop by cutting out rediculously far..

Last edited by da Liks on Aug 27, 2010 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HerdWake
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PostPosted: Aug 26, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the advice....I will try it out this weekend and see if it gets any better.
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mala1967
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PostPosted: Aug 27, 2010 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1# More momentum on the way out will give yo more momentum on the way in. Take a bigger cut out and start at the top of the wake to get you going

2# Sit during the coast in between the edge out and edge in, not just before the wake.

3# Stand tall more through the wake and hold tall through the air, fully extended.
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Trojan03
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PostPosted: Aug 27, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have more videos that show these techniques? I'm new to wakeboarding and I'm having trouble getting this down as well. Great advice so far!
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mala1967
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PostPosted: Aug 27, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you need to join learnwake.com it is well worth it. you can upload your video and they break them down for you plus they have a ton of instructional videos
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Chocoholic
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PostPosted: Aug 27, 2010 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't get this the further you cut out and the faster you come in the more pop and distance you get. It couldn't be further from the truth. I was out with a friend yesterday who was having these same issues. She was going out far and coming in like a bullet out of a gun, so by the time she hit the wake, all the her energy was used up and the pop just got absorbed.

Once she learned to just cut out a few metres and come in controlled, with the proper way to pop, her height and distance improved dramatically. You can do the big cut outs and fast edges in, but it doesn't teach good technique at the end of the day, because basically you're relying on the boat and line to slingshot you across.

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da Liks
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PostPosted: Aug 27, 2010 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1, already found that out with the quickness!
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rmaytee
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PostPosted: Sep 07, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did it go HerdWake? Did you have a chance to try it again.

I think you can tell the few posts here that have sound advice. If you're still struggling, here is something that helped me. My first disclaimer is, I suck. I'm old, and don't dare to try any new tricks, but I have been able to clear the wake as long as I can remember, and speed will surely help that. But "POP" is a whole new story. Your first impression in standing taller helps that. But let me break down how I finally started to understand what everyone is saying when they say "progressive edge."

An old veteran, (I forget who, it might have been Charlie) related the progressive edge concept to a pendulum (looking from above). So to get the concept of it, cut way wide (not because you have to, but so you can get used to the motion of a progressive cut) wait for the speed of the boat to start pulling the line, then start leaning back, gradually harder and harder. At the wake is the place you should be edging the hardest, just like a pendulum when it is straight down.

What helped me a ton, was the "leaning back" part. You don't so much cut and sit, like you will see so many people do, but lean your body back into what is already in a "standing tall" position. Do that all the way up the wake.

Your form is actually quite nice. Just tip it back like 30 degrees by the time you are at the wake and you'll fly.

That all being said, I'm shocked with the boat set up you have. Your wake does look tiny. How fast are you going? Maybe it is the camera's point of view, I haven't seen many shots from up there. But the wake looks narrow too. I think you might be going too fast. On paper, I'm super jealous of your boat, but by the looks of that video, my 1995 Chaparral has like 8 times the wake.
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