Wakeboarder Forum Index

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   StatisticsStats   FavoritesFavorites   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages  Log inLog in 
BlogsBlogs   

Composite sandwich wakesurf build
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Wakeboarder Forum Index -> Wakesurfing and Surfing
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaping the deck is the most labor intensive part of the build. I am careful to start with a minimal amount of foam, such that this final shaping is kept to a minimum. The hardest part of this phase is remembering that the final shape of the deck, must be 1/8" less than what the final dimension will be, as I will add that 1/8" with the skin.

Again, I make my notes directly on the foam. The final measurement, and then I cross thru that after subtracting the skin thickness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a level as I am planing the deck to final dimension, to insure that my cuts are straight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After I have the thickness to fina dim's I start shaping the rails. I left this board a domed deck, not because that is a performance feature, ony because it's something that we've become accoustomed to riding.

You'll note the fin box foam is evident and will connect the deck, boxes and bottom as a single unit in the tail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally when I attach the deck, I do my resin work directly on the d-cell skin. The d-cell will suck extra resin which helps support the deck and adds stiffness. However, with the sandwich layer being Kevlar I don't have the luxury of sloppiness on the fabric. So once again, I traced the board onto the fabric and cut it so that it was 1/4" inside the final outline.

I also like to do a patch under the high traffic areas so there is a football shaped second layer of Kevlar. It extends from the back foot to the front foot and is inset from the rails about 3 inches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to get a picture, but to make sure the edges stick, I paint a think layer of epoxy along the rails where it will contact the skin. The lay the skin on top and tape it in place to prevent it from moving as I slide it in the bag.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the bag and the vacuum pulled. That is principally everything that is needed to create the composite sandwich. The remainder of the external construction is identical to a normal build. I will most likely bag on the external lamination and then set about to paint this baby.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the bag, deck skin trimmed and blended into the rails. I still have a bit more work to do there, but it's mostly finished shaped.

At this point the blank weighs 29 oz. - 1 pound 13 oz. The finished weight will be somewhere around 3.5 pounds. Just to give an idea of the strength and stiffness of this sort of technology, I stood on the blanks without any external lamination. An equivalent weight or even a heavier 2# EPS or PolyU blank would have foot prints.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 28, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The finished shape blank, ready for fin boxes, external lamination and paint.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 29, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This next step is probably overkill, but I tend to focus a TON of energy on the rails. They impact the performance of the board considerably. There is a slight "part line" where the deck skin meets the tail material. I mix up a small batch of bondo Smile and fill that in. Smile Also, d-cell is an indutrial material and may have dents or voids from shipping. If there is no EPS core visible you can fill that in with some bondo or fairing compound.

Treat it just like car body work, surform will just curing, then sand and allow to cure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 29, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am thinking of doing the final lamination with Zylon. I know it sounds like I made that up, but there really is a fabric called Zylon. The theme for this board is Ballistic Fabrics first Kevlar and now the Zylon. Zylon was designed as a ballistic fabric, but time, heat and UV deteriorate it to the point of non-functionality, so it's not used for that any longer.

The physicals for Zylon are higher than aerospace grade Carbon Fiber, plus it comes in a 4 oz weight, which is almost impossible to find in CF.

It's a shame to paint over that gold, I may create a design that allows a portion of it to show through.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bagged the deck layer of Zylon. It's even more difficult to cut than Kevlar, but a hot knife (used to melt foam) does the trick.

This is 4 oz Zylon. It has the physical properties about 10 or so times s-glass of the same weight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had some difficulty wetting the fabric out - this couldn't be used for a hand lay up, it needs to be bagged. I used a layer of perforated peel ply and "store bought" breather to try and squeeze some of the resin through the zylon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Break out the good scissors Smile and make sure the peel ply is larger than the fabric. The peel ply is treated such that the resin won't stick to it. The small holes allow excess resin to flow through where it is soaked up by the breather material.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For these tough laminates where I am wrapping the rail, I use some soft cushion foam. The foam allows me to work the wrinkles out easier and it gives me a ton of time to pul everything tight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the vaccum is pulling, I flip the board over and gather up the excess - holding it in place with various clamps...just until the vacuum is fully pulled.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 30, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pulled about 12 inches of mercury on this one, I believe it will be enough.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 31, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the bag this morning - it seems to have stuck down pretty well, the rail lap did fine, which was my biggest concern with such a stiff fabric.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Dec 31, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't get a picture, but the bottom lamination is in the bag...principally flip, and repeat. The only thing I did different, is I ran a sanding block over the laps before bagging the bottom Zylon.
_________________
Buy my kid's board! Smile

FlyBoy Wakesurf - the most technically advanced wakesurf boards
Wakesurf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 01, 2009 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the bag this morning and it weighs in at 2 pounds and 10 oz. That is about 7 oz heavier than the first board at this stage. Mostly that is associated with the Carbon on the rails, plus I used a 2 oz e-glass on the bottom of the first board, whereas this board uses a 4 oz fabric.

The stiffness increase is pretty substantial on this board, compared to the first effort. It's a factor of about 4 from the first effort. My testing methodology is very rudimentary so that factor is probaby not overly accurate. I just checked a "strength chart" from Soeller Composites and that does show potential 4 to 1 increase compared to s-glass.

Regardless of the chart, I think I can safely say that an increase in weight of 7 oz, which represented almost a 20% increase, allowed me to decrease thickness of the web by approximately 12% and still resulted in an increase in stiffness in excess of 100%.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 02, 2009 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the lamination, the glass or in the case Zylon, should still have the weave of the cloth present. You only want to use as much resin as is necessary to stick the glass down. Too much resin and the board becomes unnecessarily heavy, plus it starts taking on more of the characteristics of the resin - that is it's brittle and prone to hairline cracks.

After the fabric is laminated, a "hot coat" is applied. The hoat coat is often referred to as a sanding coat or a skim coat. It is very thin, basically just filling in the external weave of the fabric.

The first step is to tape off the opposite side so that when the resin runs over the rails, you don't screw up the opposite side.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 02, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use epoxy on this as it's much stronger and stiffer than polyester, however it is quite the challenge to work with.

Fisheyes are most commonly caused by contaminantes on the surface, oil, dust, etc. I always wipe down the surface with DNA first.

Pinholes are caused, most often, by air trapped in the foam. The best way to deal this is to apply the epoxy on falling temperatures. As the air trapped in the foam heats, it will expand and rise through the curing epoxy. When the temperature is dropping it actually helps suck the resin into the foam.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 02, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a special hot box to keep the temperature at or about 60 or so degrees during these winter months.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
oshensurfer
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much
PityDaFool Who Posts This Much


Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 6325

PostPosted: Jan 04, 2009 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again. Very nice work. Seems alot more labor intensive than shaping PUPE, glassing and riding. But, that thing looks like it'll take a beating...or a bullet. Laughing
_________________
(insert funny chit here)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Blog
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 04, 2009 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Oshesurfer,

Yeah...it's way more effort than shaping, glassing and riding PUPE. If I didn't mention this earlier, the problem with super complicated builds are that EASY builds ride really well and are EASY. Smile

This methodology offers some design benefits - such as all the components are isolated. The rail material can be polurethane or SAN foam, or the PVC foam that I used. The core can be 1# EPS or maybe that super crappy .75# EPS or even a 2 pound Polyurethane. The skins, the internal lamination...as you sit down to build the board, each component can be selected to complement the final product.

On the flip side though...all of those "moving parts" also introduce the complexity of the inter-related parts.

One thing that can never be achieved with a PUPE is the weight and stiffness. This board weighs in at 2 pounds 14 oz and that's not the lightest I've built. You'd be hard pressed to get a shaped blank, before lamination, into that weight range.

Thanks for following along!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 07, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The next step is to install the fin boxes. The process is similar for all removable fins/box. Measure, align, route the hole and glue the box in.

Without getting into the boring details, measure and mark.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 07, 2009 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the Futures fins installation jig. If you do more than a few installs, this jig will make your life tons easier...otherwise you can just freehand it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 07, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mix up 1 oz of epoxy per hole and then insert the boxes, with a set of fns to insure that cant is correct and consistent. Then let it cure.

For all intents and purposes this board is done and can be ridden. It weighs 2 pounds 12 oz without the fins. With traction and fins it'll be under 3 pounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 08, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My little 3 pound boar5d supports my 190 pounds. This is my test of adequate strength.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 08, 2009 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zylon degrades with exposure to UV, so I will paint this. The rest of this is just basic body work. Smile The laps with the Zylon stood proud and can't be sanded, so needs to be faired. I opted for Bondo, because I had some and it's fast. Microballons and epoxy is another option. After I get the laps faired, I will shoot several coats of a high build primer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 10, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My paint scheme is a direct copy of the Powell Classic - ripper skate deck. I will forego the skull and tear, mostly because I can't airbrush to save my life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 10, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way that I will go about painting this is to do a high build primer. Sand that repeatedly until all of my surfaces are smooth. Then lay down a white base coat. Once the base coat is "flawless" the masking begins. The white stripes will achieved by ripping some masking tape and covering the areas that I want the white horizontal stripes, SAVING the "offcut" pieces of tape. Once all the white stripes are covered, I will shoot black to achieve the black horizontal stripes. Once the black is laid out, I will carefully place the "offcuts" of the tape close to the matching piece to create a small gap for the red "almost" pinlines between the white and black. Once that has all cured, I will remove the tape and hit it with a ton of clear.
_________________
Buy my kid's board! Smile

FlyBoy Wakesurf - the most technically advanced wakesurf boards
Wakesurf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 11, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To give a rough idea how the masking for the horizontal stripes is created and the system I will use to keep it all organized.

Autobody professionals have huge sheets of masking paper that are 36" wide, which is most likely what I will order. In this way I'll have an idea what the "row" above and below looks like as I am cutting the the general shapes.

As you can see in this picture, the gap between the two cut pieces can be placed to effect a "pinline". In the skate deck that was the red color between the white and black. I'll shoot red also.

I labeled these pieces "TOP" and "BOTTOM" and R1 for row 1. I will need to adjust the spacing of the horizontal stripes so that I can leave the gap for the pinline. So each stripe will be composed of a "bottom" and the succeeding row's "top" mask. Then I will fill in any gap with tape. Hopefully as I go along that will become clearer Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 11, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Primer applied. I'm not quite sure when I'll be able to lay down the base coat. It's very cold here and the humidity is high, neither attribute is condusive to paint drying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 12, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I resolved my paint issue with my super sophisticated climate controlled paint booth. Smile A small electric space heater is inside.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
surfdad
Soul Rider
Soul Rider


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 381
City: Stockton

PostPosted: Jan 12, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two coats of white base coat. I think I'd like to hit it with two more coats.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Wakeboarder Forum Index -> Wakesurfing and Surfing All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

Add To Favorites

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
             


Copyright 2012 - Wakeboarding - Wakeboarder.com - All Right Reserved
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group