Legal drinking age debate...

[nmballa]

Now this is kind of hard to argue against since this collection of signers represent the elite intellectual institutions of our country. I fully support this initiative and have always sided with a lower age.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-amethyst-initiative-080819-ht,0,5371910.story

College presidents from about 100 of the nation's best-known universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.

The movement called the Amethyst Initiative began quietly recruiting presidents more than a year ago to provoke national debate about the drinking age.

"This is a law that is routinely evaded," said John McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont who started the organization. "It is a law that the people at whom it is directed believe is unjust and unfair and discriminatory."

Five Connecticut college presidents are on the list, including the presidents of Fairfield University, St. Joseph College in Hartford, Trinity College in Hartford, the University of Hartford and the University of New Haven.

Other prominent schools in the group include Syracuse, Tufts, Colgate, Kenyon and Morehouse.

But even before the presidents begin the public phase of their efforts, which may include publishing newspaper ads in the coming weeks, they are already facing sharp criticism.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving says lowering the drinking age would lead to more fatal car crashes. It accuses the presidents of misrepresenting science and looking for an easy way out of an inconvenient problem. MADD officials are even urging parents to think carefully about the safety of colleges whose presidents have signed on.

"It's very clear the 21-year-old drinking age will not be enforced at those campuses," said Laura Dean-Mooney, national president of MADD.

Both sides agree alcohol abuse by college students is a huge problem.

Research has found more than 40 percent of college students reported at least one symptom of alcohol abuse or dependance. One study has estimated more than 500,000 full-time students at four-year colleges suffer injuries each year related in some way to drinking, and about 1,700 die in such accidents.

A recent Associated Press analysis of federal records found that 157 college-age people, 18 to 23, drank themselves to death from 1999 through 2005.

Moana Jagasia, a Duke University sophomore from Singapore, where the drinking age is lower, said reducing the age in the U.S. could be helpful.

"There isn't that much difference in maturity between 21 and 18," she said. "If the age is younger, you're getting exposed to it at a younger age, and you don't freak out when you get to campus."

McCardell's group takes its name from ancient Greece, where the purple gemstone amethyst was widely believed to ward off drunkenness if used in drinking vessels and jewelry. He said college students will drink no matter what, but do so more dangerously when it's illegal.

The statement the presidents have signed avoids calling explicitly for a younger drinking age. Rather, it seeks "an informed and dispassionate debate" over the issue and the federal highway law that made 21 the de facto national drinking age by denying money to any state that bucks the trend.

But the statement makes clear the signers think the current law isn't working, citing a "culture of dangerous, clandestine binge-drinking," and noting that while adults under 21 can vote and enlist in the military, they "are told they are not mature enough to have a beer." Furthermore, "by choosing to use fake IDs, students make ethical compromises that erode respect for the law."

"I'm not sure where the dialogue will lead, but it's an important topic to American families and it deserves a straightforward dialogue," said William Troutt, president of Rhodes College in Memphis, Tenn., who has signed the statement.

But some other college administrators sharply disagree that lowering the drinking age would help. University of Miami President Donna Shalala, who served as secretary of health and human services under President Clinton, declined to sign.

"I remember college campuses when we had 18-year-old drinking ages, and I honestly believe we've made some progress," Shalala said in a telephone interview. "To just shift it back down to the high schools makes no sense at all."

McCardell claims that his experiences as a president and a parent, as well as a historian studying Prohibition, have persuaded him the drinking age isn't working.


But critics say McCardell has badly misrepresented the research by suggesting that the decision to raise the drinking age from 18 to 21 may not have saved lives.

In fact, MADD CEO Chuck Hurley said, nearly all peer-reviewed studies looking at the change showed raising the drinking age reduced drunk-driving deaths. A survey of research from the U.S. and other countries by the Centers for Disease Control and others reached the same conclusion.

McCardell cites the work of Alexander Wagenaar, a University of Florida epidemiologist and expert on how changes in the drinking age affect safety. But Wagenaar himself sides with MADD in the debate.

The college presidents "see a problem of drinking on college campuses, and they don't want to deal with it," Wagenaar said in a telephone interview. "It's really unfortunate, but the science is very clear."

Another scholar who has extensively researched college binge-drinking also criticized the presidents' initiative.

"I understand why colleges are doing it, because it splits their students, and they like to treat them all alike rather than having to card some of them. It's a nuisance to them," said Henry Wechsler of the Harvard School of Public Health.

But, "I wish these college presidents sat around and tried to work out ways to deal with the problem on their campus rather than try to eliminate the problem by defining it out of existence," he said.

Duke faced accusations of ignoring the heavy drinking that formed the backdrop of 2006 rape allegations against three lacrosse players. The rape allegations proved to be a hoax, but the alcohol-fueled party was never disputed.

Duke senior Wey Ruepten said university officials should accept the reality that students are going to drink and give them the responsibility that comes with alcohol.

"If you treat students like children, they're going to act like children," he said.

Duke President Richard Brodhead declined an interview request. But he wrote in a statement on the Amethyst Initiative's Web site that the 21-year-old drinking age "pushes drinking into hiding, heightening its risks." It also prevents school officials "from addressing drinking with students as an issue of responsible choice."

Hurley, of MADD, has a different take on the presidents.

"They're waving the white flag," he said.

[holdsworth]

might as well. probably around 75% of 18 year olds drink on a regular basis. i'm in the 25th percentile though, surprisingly.

[nmballa]

Pretty good debate going on in the comments section...

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/steve_chapman/2008/08/dont-lower-the.html

Also here is a link to the website...

http://www.amethystinitiative.org/

[nmballa]

Another good debate on this. Not sure if anyone is interested but I figured I would post it anyways.

opposingviews.com

[Chad H]

I agree it would make sense, but i think it'd take about 10 years for it to really help save lives. The transition period would be wild.

[nmballa]

Chad H, yeah it would have to wind it self into the culture.

[holdsworth]

hell, germans and some other european countries have the legal age at 16, drive at 18. they're doing just fine. they also drink stronger beer, compared to the water over this way. i think 18 would be just fine.

[nmballa]

holdsworth, the way denmark is set up is 14 to purchase beer, 16 to purchase spirits, and typically 18 to enter a bar, quite often the bars are 21 to enter, some being 23. The age you can get a liscence is 18 although it is very exspensive and a very long process. Typically around $2,000+ and something like 100 or 150 hours behind the wheel. When a driver gets his liscence they have typically already been familiar with drinking for about 4-5 years, have invested a ton of time and money in getting the liscence, are probably better educated drivers than your standard 16 y.o. US kid, and are much less likely to risk loosing that liscence. The punishment for DUI is pretty stiff over there. In the states its often a slap on the wrist for your first few.

[microman]

It's much like the decriminalization of marijuana, and certain other restrictions on civil liberties. Virtually everyone can acknowledge that current laws don't act as a deterrent and are a waste of time and money to enforce. As I understand it, in most states you can buy a pack of cigarettes when you're 18. Seems a bit inconsistent when it comes to "protecting" the public from themselves.

Unfortunately the political will isn't there to change these laws because of lobbyists groups and other interests who wield more influence.

[Wakin Dirrty]

I dont really think there is a use for changing the age limit, they cant even control kids underage drinking now. If we lower the age to 18 then we will have alot of 16 year olds trying to pass for 18 to buy beer all the time. I know in other countries they have lower age drinking but other countries seem to have there stuff more together. Look at the crime rates here compared to other countries. We have way to many kids here that get away with whatever they want. Underage kids here drink because they want to not because there parents let them drink underage.

Kids already grow up fast enough so there is no need for them to grow up any faster. To me it seems like all the kids that I know that started smoking and drinking at young age live with there parents till there 30 years old and cant even keep a job.

My opinion is to leave it alone and if you want to let your kid drink under 21 thats you opinion. They are going to drink no matter what the age limit is set at.

[bass69]

i agree with everything Wakin Dirrty just said

[J_DOGG]

The facts -

You can legally die for this country at the age of 18.
You can legally get and ruin your credit at the age of 18.
You can legally sign a binding contract at the age of 18.
You can get legally married in every state in this country at the age of 18.
(some prob lower)

The legall drinking age used to be 18!!!!!!

MADD are complete Nazi hypocrites who work by using fear and intimidation with little to no factual information to support their arguments.

[nmballa]

Wakin Dirrty, I would rather have my 16 y.o. kid expeirmenting with alcohol while he was still under my roof. Even if it was at a freinds house or something. Atleast I would be just a call away. An 18 y.o. could be miles if not thousands of miles away on some campus. One thing i do recall about college is that people drank twice as hard than they did in HS. I think drinking in HS is a bit more of a controlled environment.

[Wakin Dirrty]

nmballa- I totally agree with you but alot of times I know of young 15 and 16 year olds drinking till they cant stand and it isnt in a controlled enviroment. I think high school was a little different from when you when to what it is now these days but we did drink twice as hard in college then high school good times...

Not to long ago my inlaws had there alcohol and brand new truck stolen from the neiborhood kids that live 3 houses down the road that they have known all there lives. They were 15, two 16. and a 17 year old. They took the truck joy riding wrecked the truck and then decided to break out the windows with rocks and kick in the doors. One of the boys finally told the police they did it after a week.

I dont know about you but back then 15 year olds didnt break into peoples houses steal there alcohol and joy ride in peoples cars. especially people they have known there hole lives. Again I could be wrong but im just saying I think times are WAY different know then they where 10-15 years ago.

As fas as letting my 16 year old drink at other peoples houses or letting his friends drink at yours is your personal business but its to much liability for me. What if one of the kids is extremely allergic to alcohol? Definaly not something I would want to explain to a police officer.

[Laptom]

[quote="J_DOGG"]The facts -

You can legally die for this country at the age of 18.
You can legally get and ruin your credit at the age of 18.
You can legally sign a binding contract at the age of 18.
You can get legally married in every state in this country at the age of 18.
(some prob lower)
quote]

I'm from Europe and this is something I don't understand from USA....
Indeed you're allowed to do everything mentioned above.
You can also buy a pistol when you're 18.
You can drive a car when you're 16.

Those things seems so controverse when you're allowed to buy alcohol when you're 21...

[Oasis137]

Wakin Dirrty, you dont think any of that ever happened in past generations? Your taking a story that combines younger people and alcohol and trying to show that bad stuff happens? Yea it is going to happen and it has happened in the past. Way to give a completely solid and unbiased counter argument...

[Mitchell]

SWEET! I turn 21 in 2 months, why couldnt they do this 3 years ago

[Wakebrad]

I've been against lowering the drinking age to 18, but they do have some decent arguments. The US is different from other countries. The culture around alcohol is more taboo, which I think leads to more irresponsibility. That culture is not going to change by moving the drinking age to 18.

And the counter-point is also valid. If you move it to 18 and Seniors in HS can drink, it has the same effect on younger kids in highschool.

If it were me making the decision it would be a tough one, but I would probably go with legalize it. Because if you can be drafted, you should be able to drink a draft. There is definitely hypocrisy in the law based on the rest of the age limits.

[hammy]

Wakebrad, totally agreed that the taboo placed on alcohol by a very loud minority makes the US situation unique. I think it will take a paradigm shift in thinking, including a general acceptance of personal accountability to change anything on a cultural scale. Sadly, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I would support a stepped roll back in drinking age. 19 or 20 immediately, followed a few years after by 18. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

[nmballa]

Wakin Dirrty, kids used to do the same stuff back when I was in HS. Kids will be kids. They will do some pretty shady stuff. Now if they had access to alcohol without stealing would your inlaws truck still have been stolen. I assume that the kids broke into the house to steal boos, found the keys to the truck at the same time and the rest unfolded.

In regards to kids drinking till they can't stand, from what I remember in HS that was pretty much the case too. The difference was that typically the enviroment was low key with limited access to alcohol. Meaning that it was typically a bottle of vodka or some beers. Not flammable punch. I certainly don't remember bonging bottles of whiskey in HS, but college was a different story. I remember alot of kids in HS who were never really exposed to drinking due to overbearing parents. I also remember alot of these same kids getting into some serious problems in college. Some dropped out, one was raped while passed out, several ended up in jail. Now don't get me wrong I was allowed to drink in HS and did alot of it. I got in some trouble with it while in college but if you had removed the thrill factor from it, it probably would have been a different story

Wakebrad, hammy, I agree that at 18 it would result in a trickle down effect to younger kids. The question is would that be such a bad thing. If you ask me, relax the drinking laws to 16 or 17 for beer, 18 for boos, 21 for the bar. Raise the driving age to a minimum of 18 or 19. I would rather have my kid taught how to drink responsibly before he has to learn how to drive responsibly. All in all I think there are alot better and safer ways to manage young driver and young drinkers. I think that the current system is seriously flawed and we need to take another look at it.

[Big Al]

I agree, if you can go to war...or to jail, when youre 18 you should be able to drink. I would say at least half of my senior class got drunk most weekends anyways.

My dad was born and raised in England and it was hard as hell to get his first license. He laughed his ass off when I got my first one, he thought it was crazy...made sense to him why driving around 16 year olds can be scary though. I think if they want to make 18 the age youre an adult, you should be able to do anything an adult would do...including drink. The driving age should either go up to 18, or it should be WAY harder to get a license...or both.

No matter what they do though, it doesnt matter...its like weed, I dont smoke anymore but I can get as much as I want delivered to my house right now, literally like ordering a pizza but faster. If people dont like the law, they just ignore it.

Plus, I know here a Minor In Consumption (MIC) ticket is only a Class C misdemeanor...which is exactly the same as a speeding ticket.

[J_DOGG]

nmballa, well said.

To add you all know by now my parents were cops, step farther was the Chief of Police in Kingston NH for 34+ years and my mom was a street cop, dispatcher and private investigator. So as you would suspect I didn't get away with much back in tha day and if I did their was always one kid willing to rat me out to save his own ass. I got into a lot of fights for that reason alone anyhoo.

My parents let me drink at home, and at family functions starting as young as 16. They never counted my beers and never had to worry about my drinking or handling my alcohol. All my younger cousins would cry about me being able to drink at Thanksgiving when they could not. Guess what two of the many cousins that cried turned into the biggest drunks and druggies, dropped out of high school and got in trouble with the law.. Sure I ripped it up with my buddies, I was no angle and with a fake ID could have been called the ring leader but I was never the drunk stupid guy at the party or let drinking ruin and run my life.

So it really comes down to good parenting, controlling their environment, teaching kids how to self discipline and having personal responsibility at a young age.
The key to this IMO is creating an environment where kids feel they have a choice and also have the knowledge to make the right choice, that starts with the parents.


Side note:
Why not just make the starting age for school one year sooner so no 18 year olds are in high school unless they are stupid and take the short bus?
Wouldn't legal drinking at 18 make more sense if that was the case??

Wasn't the reason they changed it to 21 in the first place for this reason,, or at least that's what I remember my parents telling us back then...

The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 states that revenue will be withheld from states that allow the purchase of alcohol by anyone under the age of 21.

I graduated in 1989 so I know all about being right at the door and having it closed in my face.....

[weatherford]

I am in the military and i personally think its stuff that i put my life on the line in a time of war, and can't even drink 1 beer legally. Pure BS

[booby bunny]

[ky1e]

High school wouldn't have been half as fun with the drinking age being 18. Takes all of the sport out of trying to get booze for the weekend. Makes drinking that much more fun knowing you had to hit up 4 different liquor stores with a fake ID in order for one to bite

[jt09]

can't go back now. it would be a total disaster.

[nmballa]

jt09, Probably, but 10 years down the road it would taper off and a culture shift would occur.

[Wakin Dirrty]

[hco]

Alot of the debate isn't even about so much lowering the drinking age. My school president gave a speech about it yesterday. The goal of this is not to change the drinking age. The main purpose for this debate is to analyze and identify all the problems in our culture with drinking. Firstly being that in order to get some highway funding money, states had to raise their legal drinking age to 21, since the two bills were tied together. Another is that the two main countries with binge drinking problems are the UK and the US. Both have large amounts of colleges with residences. The thought being that so many people at the same young age creates this drinking problem. From what my school's president said they plan on finding the source of the binging problem and maybe creating a solution.

[ky1e]

[kent2010]

[Big Al]