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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jun 30, 2003 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thought I would bring this old topic back to life. I wired everything as I was instructed and it worked great. The system was filling when I hit the fill switch and emptied when I hit the empy switch. Everything was great for about the 1st week and now I can fill it and it will be fine, but when I got to empty or to fill a sac a little more it blows my 20 amp fuse. I replace the fuse and it will then empty or fill whatever I want. It's like I can either fill or empty, but as soon as I turn off the switch and flip it again it will blow a fuse. Should I maybe use a bigger fuse? Maybe a 30 amp. I'm clueless on what could be wrong. It's not like the pump is overheating either. I could turn it on for a second and turn it off, but as soon as I flip the switch either way again it will blow a fuse. I basically end up using 2 fuses for each set. ! fuse to fill and another fuse to empty.
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$-[]0[][]V[][]0-$ Criminal
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 99 City: san jose
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Posted: Jun 30, 2003 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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just hooked up that exact setup not to long ago.Yellow from the switch is battery ground.Follow the diagram that came with the pump and the yellow comes up as an extra but it is definetley the battery ground.
_________________ "Go ahead and marinate on that for a minute" |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 01, 2003 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I never received any wiring diagram for my pump or toggle switch. I also have no yellow wire. My pump has a orange positive wire and a black negative coming from it, but nothing more then that. I think we may have a different pump or different switch.
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Jul 02, 2003 12:56 pm Post subject: Different pump or switch |
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Agree, sounds like our hieroglyphic friend has a different pump/switch combination. There's one thing you may want to check absolutely: if you stop the pump mid-fill (or mid-drain) and then re-start in the same direction, does the fuse blow then or ONLY when you reverse the direction?
If the latter, it sounds like it could be the extra friction of flipping the impeller blades over to the other direction of rotation could be the problem.
Would be loath to just up the fuse rating without some idea of what's causing it to blow. Fuses are there to protect things getting damaged and a bigger fuse may just leave your pump open to burning out.
Another possibility is that the gauge of the wire you have used to wire in the pump (and switch) is too small. If so, there will be a voltage drop along the length of the wire meaning that the pump only receives 10-11 volts (or even less) rather than the full 12. It mentions this in the Jabsco data sheet and on the bottom of the second page there are recommendations on what gauge to use for any given length of wire. Remember, the length is from the positive of the battery, via the switch to the pump and back to the negative of the battery.
The way mine is wired that's 24 ft so I used heavy duty wire that only just fits the crimp connectors that fit on the back of the switch. As yet I've had no problems with my installation.
_________________ Jeff |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 03, 2003 7:27 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't seem to matter if I switch the direction or not. When I shut the pump off and then flip the switch again in either direction it blows the 20amp fuse. I did review the wiring chart at the bottom of the manaul. I guess the only thing I didn't think of was the wire is basically continued from the battery to the pump through the switch. I determined that my length would be 15 to 20 feet and in turn I would need 14 guage wire. I bought 14 guage wire in 20 foot lengths. 4 different colors to differentiate what wire was for what. I ended up cutting off about 5 feet of each wire, but I guess that would leave 15 + 15 which would be 30 ft of wire. Maybe I should have bought 12 guage wire. Sounds like the wire could definetly be the problem. One other thing to mention. When I initially hit the switch I can kind of hear the pump trying to run, but then I hear the snapping noise that indicates my fuse has blown. The only thing I don't understand is as soon as I put in another fuse the pump comes right on and works perfect until it is turned off again. What would make it work with a new fuse initially if the wiring is to small?
_________________ If your afraid to die then you have never really lived
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Jul 03, 2003 9:36 am Post subject: Weird symptoms |
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That's weird and this is a real guess but.....
If it IS undersize cables, the effect is that the resistance of the wires is significant compared to the resitance of the motor windings in the pump.
To explain the effect of this simply, I'll make certain assumptions. For example, lets assume the pump is 10 ohms and the cables are 10 ohms (they should be of minimal resistance). The 12 volts of the battery will be shared equally between the pump and the cables and the pump will only see 6 volts. This is because the resistance of the motor windings is half of the total resistance of cables plus pump windings.
Because it can't get enough power with only 6 volts present (remember, power equals voltage multiplied by current), the pump fails to start, the current it draws goes up, the windings get hot and the fuse does it's job and blows to protect the circuit.
If, say, as a result of getting hot, the motor windings double in resistance to 20 ohms, when you put the new fuse in the motor is still hot and still measures 20 ohms. Because the total resitance is now 30 ohms (the 20 ohms of the (hot) motor plus the 10 ohms of the cables) the motor gets 20/30ths (i.e. 66%) of the voltage i.e. nearly 8 volts. The additional power available may just be enough to make the difference for the motor to start.
It's crossed my mind that if this is what's happening, the cables ought to get hot and their resitance will increase too. But, because they are long and thin they disappate the heat easily so don't get as hot as the closely wound wires of the motor from which the heat cannot esacpe quickly.
Hence the resistance of the motor increases to a greater extent than that of the cables so the motor enjoys a larger share of the battery voltage when it's hot. This is a real guess but is the best possible explanation I can come up with.
Something you may like to try is disassembling the pump head and lubricating the impeller with vaseline. If it starts OK several times over then it suggests that at the moment, the pump hasn't enough power available to overcome the friction. This will also enable you to inspect the impeller for signs of damage or sticking.
Furthermore, if you have a multi-meter, measure the voltage across the pump (at the pump end) when you flip the switch and see what it reads. If it's significantly less than 12 volts it's definitely the gauge of the cables that's the problem.
_________________ Jeff |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 06, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff, things just got worse. I hadn't tested my system or reran any of the wiring since my last post. Went this weekend with heavier guage wire in hand. I had decided I would replace the 14 gauge wire with 10 gauge wire. I replaced the 20 amp fuse before replacing the wire to see what would happen. I flipped the switch to fill and nothing. The pump didn't make any noise or try to start, but what was weird is the fuse never blew. I the flipped it to empty and it worked great. I flipped it from off to empty a few more times to see what would happened and it ran great. So now I'm wondering what to do. I never tried to switch any of the wires around to see if it would work in the opposite direction because I just wasn't sure what to do. The things that could of happened in my opinion are probably wrong, but I'll go ahead and throw them out. I figure one of the wires for the fill position became so hot from the last time when I kept replacing 20 amp fuses that it actually damaged the wire and now feeds no power to the pump in the fill position. Second, the pump is now a one way pump as it may have overheated before causing damage and now will only work in one direction. Last being that the switch has now become faulty and now isn't switching polarity and feeding power to the pump in the fill position. I'm am now very confused and don't know what to do or try to find out where the problem is. Also, I read the manual with the pump again for the wiring size.When I initally read it I thought it was recommending wire size in gauge format, but noticed that it said for wire lengths of 25-40 feet use 10 gauge wire, but then it goes on to show the wire runs for anything over 40 feet would only need 12 gauge wire. I don't understand how you could need larger wire for a shorter run. Maybe it was a typo, but thought I also could be missing something. I hope you can help me out on this one JEFF. I'm ready to have the pump working once and for all with no problems.
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Jul 07, 2003 12:01 am Post subject: Recommendations |
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I think it's unlikely that the switch has failed and also unlikely that the pump will only run one way. I'm not sure on the latter but think that if the pump failed, it would fail completely.
If I was faced with this dilemma I would want to check the pump and switch independently. The easiest to check is the pump. Just disconnect the connections you've made to the orange and black spurs to the pump and simply touch these two wires intermittently to the terminals of a 12 v battery. You may need to move your battery (of borrow another) to get it near to the pump. Swap the wires round and if the pump starts and runs in both directrions, it's not the pump.
Second, I'd remove the switch from the dash and make up some short wires about a foot long and re-wire the switch to the battery and pump correctly using these, i.e. replicate your wiring but using short lengths.
Again, if the switch/pump combo works OK in this set-up, it has to be the wiring you've put in the boat.
Yes, it's a typo on the datasheet. I looked at the adjacent gauges and made an assumption about the gauge required. I went to an auto-electrics store and we talked the problem thro'. They gave me the biggest diameter wire that could be used with the spade terminals on the switch. It seems they are only designed for 15 amps so putting larger gauge wire than I used is difficult as it won't enter the holes on the female (end-of-wire) connectors.
If, indeed, it's a burnt-out wire, to check which it is don't forget you can simply use a car lamp and another length of wire connected in series with the "suspect" wire to make a round-trip circuit across your battery. If the lamp lights, the wire is OK, if it doesn't the wire in question has either burned out of the connection at one end is faulty. Assuming you've crimped the connectiuons to the spade terminals, you may want to check these too.
Always start with the obvious and easiest to check and work from there.
Good luck and let me know how you get on!
Jeff
_________________ Jeff |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 07, 2003 3:32 am Post subject: |
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I probably won't be able to check my pump out for another 2 weeks as I have other things going on. I plan on buying everything I will need to rewire the switch. I will obviously go through your checklist first to varify and hope it's not the switch or pump. Thanks for all the help and I'll let you know how it goes. Also, what gauge wire did you end up using? I plan on using 10, but never did check to see if those spade connectors will handle that big. When I go to get everything I'll try to buy terminals that can handle 10 gauge since I already bought the wire. Thanks
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Jul 07, 2003 6:59 am Post subject: Wire diameter |
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US wire gauge is different from UK wire gauge so I can’t offer a direct comparison. However, the stuff I used contains 36 strands of fine wire that in total make up a conductor about 3/16th inch in diameter. The overall diameter of the wire including the insulation is just over 1/8th inch.
I anticipated a potential problem with the resistance of small gauage wire so went as big as was practical. I'd have gone bigger were it not for the problem of mating the wire to the connector and hence the switch. I have attached a photograph showing the cable I have used in comparison to a standard spade connector suitable for the switch. Only by being very careful could I get all the 36 conductors into the hole in the centre of the connector.
I called the shop I bought the cable from and tried to obtain its technical specification in terms of area of conductor. They weren’t terribly helpful but did say that the problem with boats is always the length of the cable run (inferring you have to use heavier gauge cable than would apply when wiring the same eqt in, say, a car).
They also said the cable I have used is rated for 24 amps continuous running. This is fine but you still have the problem of resistance building up over a long length so that figure can be misleading. They also indicated it would be man enough for most applications other than charging circuits.
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Cable, connector and rule for scaling purposes |
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_________________ Jeff |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 07, 2003 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the help. I'll go home and measure my 10 gauge wire to see if I'm even close to being big enough. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jul 14, 2003 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Jeff, I tried a few different things with the pump this week. First off I connected the pump directly to the battery in both posistions and it did pump in both directions. So I know the pump is alright. Second, I decided to reverse the wires at the pump to see what would happen. Before the pump would only empty. So I switched them and it then filled which is what I figured would happen. I didn't have the time to rerun all the wires, but I will definetly replace the wire with 10 guage regardless of what the problem is since that's what the pump specs call for. I just didn't have time this weekend. The wierd thing is I then tried to switch the wires at the pump back how they were so I could empty my sacs and it kept the pump in the fill position. When it was wired correctly the pump worked fine meaning that when I flipped the fill button it filled, but when I flipped the empty it did nothing the opposite of what it did last week. I then tried to switch them back so they were incorrect. The same thing I had done before I had taken my wakeboard set, but this time it switched on the switch. When I flipped the fill button it did nothing, but when I flipped the empty switch it would fill. I understand how it would do the opposite since I am switching the polarity, but don't understand why it switched it at the switch and not on the pump. Why did it work 4 hours earlier? Any thoughts or suggestions would help. I will rewire the switch in the next couple weeks, but wanted to get your opinion on what is happening with the switch.
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Jul 15, 2003 8:43 am Post subject: Continuing problems |
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Trent - Hope you got my direct e-mail response. For the benefit of forum watchers, it's clear the pump is OK. What you need to do now is eliminate the switch which then leaves only the wiring as the potential problem.
I revert to my mssg of July 7th. If it was me, I'd remove the switch from the dash and make up some short cables to wire it up as has been recommended as close to the pump as you can get. Either move your battery or use another as the power source and get this as close as possible too. Keeping the cables short eliminates the possibility of the problems being voltage drop related (not that I think they are at this point - it sounds more like an intermittent short circuit or a poor connection somewhere).
If the pump runs in opposite directions with the switch in the drain & fill positions and everything seems OK with this "miniature" set-up, then it HAS to be the wiring you've put in the boat.
At this stage I'm guessing that you have two wires or connectors touching where they meet the switch (that shouldn't be touching). The other alternative is a "dry" joint i.e. the wire to spade connector connection is poor. What can happen in this situation is that at a specific point in time the wire is in contact with the connector and the set-up works. You then ride over your wake and the vibration moves the wire just a fraction, the circuit is broken and the pump stops working. Such a vibration could equally move the wire from contacting one switch terminal to another hence apparently reversing the direction of the pump.
There's so little room at the back of that switch to get 8 conductors in that it's easy to get a short circuit. Make sure the connectors you use are insulated from one another or wrap them in electrician's tape to ensure they are.
_________________ Jeff |
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jpowter Newbie
Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 6 City: Allen
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 3:31 am Post subject: Installing ballast system |
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By your posts you installed your own ballast system I was thinking of doing this and wanted your thougts. Did you use fat sacs? Or factory? One pump for fill and one for drain. So many questions....
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riverside Soul Rider
Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 285 City: netherlands
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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hey i remember that post...lol.
i tried that same setup but i noticed the impellor got jammed/stuck after a while.
it,s better to have 2 pumps and use the same switch.
_________________ Waterskischool RiverSide |
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Nov 01, 2004 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Installing ballast system |
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jpowter wrote: | By your posts you installed your own ballast system I was thinking of doing this and wanted your thougts. Did you use fat sacs? Or factory? One pump for fill and one for drain. So many questions.... |
1) Who was this question aimed at?
2) Regardless of that, run a search.
This is a frequently posted topic. There's more than enough info here. If using a reversible pump, the only reason for using more than one is to increase fill/drain speed.
And riverside, how long is "a while" and why, if one pump sticks, should one (or both) of the two pumps you have installed not stick? After all, you now have twice the chance of that happening.
A possible (and common explanation) is that the wires to your pump are too small gauge and you are dropping volts en-route to the pump. So, when the lube wears off after several uses, the pump doesn't have quite enough grunt to reverse the blades on the impeller and it stalls.
_________________ Jeff |
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riverside Soul Rider
Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 285 City: netherlands
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Posted: Nov 01, 2004 9:30 am Post subject: |
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jeff
in my case the electric motor on the jabsco pump wasn,t powerfull enough to turn the impelor blades into the opposit direction.bigger wires didn,t help
_________________ Waterskischool RiverSide |
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Nov 01, 2004 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Never had any problems with mine. If that happened to me I'd send the pump back for a refund as it's unable to do what it's supposed to.
_________________ Jeff |
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WakeTech Addict
Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 949 City: Edmonton
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Posted: Feb 22, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone know were to get this exact switch ??? I've been trying to find it for a while now.
_________________ I Love The Smell of Butta In The Morning |
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MrBlean Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 09 Mar 2003 Posts: 1420 City: UK
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Posted: Feb 23, 2005 1:34 am Post subject: |
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WakeTech wrote: | Anyone know were to get this exact switch ??? I've been trying to find it for a while now. |
Google's a wonderful thing...... Just search for Carling switch distributors. Came up with http://dkc1.digikey.com/uk/digihome.html without even trying. I'm sure there are many others and more local to you. Ideally you'll need the part number. Can't oblige there, I'm afraid, I'm sure someone else can.
_________________ Jeff |
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PimpinD Addict
Joined: 17 Feb 2003 Posts: 785 City: Orlando, FL
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WakeTech Addict
Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 949 City: Edmonton
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Posted: Feb 25, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Same question how much is the Jabsco Ballast Puppy ?
_________________ I Love The Smell of Butta In The Morning |
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AndyDeeJay Outlaw
Joined: 20 Jul 2004 Posts: 239 City: Belfast
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Posted: Feb 27, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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about £130
_________________ Wakeboarding is so Kool in Ireland! |
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trent27 Newbie
Joined: 10 Jun 2003 Posts: 49 City: Newark
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Posted: Jun 03, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I purchased the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump with switch for $95 dollars from wakeboardboats.com about 2 years ago. I just checked and that site still carries it, but it's $199. The specs or manual for this pump can be viewed at http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfo/overview/43000-0755_ds.pdf#search='jabsco%20ballast%20puppy'.
I actually retreived this thread from the old post because this pump is still giving me problems when switching from fill to drain. I ran 10 gauge wire and have a 20 amp fuse installed. Everytime I turn it on it will work in one direction, but won't seem to switch over and reverse. I normally blow a few fuses and and end up getting it to switch directions. Same thing happens once it's switches directions. It will only go in that directions until I mess around with it by flipping the switch back and forth in both directions until it finally reverse directions or blows a fuse. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
_________________ If your afraid to die then you have never really lived
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Yooper Criminal
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 58 City: Marquette
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Posted: Jun 03, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Probably honestly your best option is to throw those reversible pumps in the garbage and start fresh with an aerator pump system. I've had both and the aerators are superior in every way. Much faster, more reliable, can run dry without damage, quieter, and much less power drain. Cheaper too.
Check out http://www.rivalindustry.com/download.htm
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sadcaper Newbie
Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 City: Bloomington
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Posted: May 09, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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To Trent27 or anyone else that may know...
Was the issue with the pump working in only one direction ever solved??? I am currently having this issue with my pump and cannot figure out how to solve it.
For instance, the pump will work when you click 'Fill', but blows a fuse when 'Drain' is clicked on the switch. Any ideas????
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P hat in Cincy Soul Rider
Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 493 City: Greater Cincinnati
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Posted: May 10, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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sadcaper wrote: | For instance, the pump will work when you click 'Fill', but blows a fuse when 'Drain' is clicked on the switch. Any ideas???? |
Something to try:
Take the pump impeller plate off the pump and either: 1) lube the impeller and impeller housing up (can use dishsoap or like), spin it with your hand to make sure it's lubed, or 2) (best) remove the impeller altogether.
After doing that, try the pump again. If it blows a fuse with no/little load (no friction), then it may be the wiring. If it works fine in both directions, then it's probably just the dry impeller and housing putting too much strain on the system.
Let us know how that goes.
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sadcaper Newbie
Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 23 City: Bloomington
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Posted: May 19, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Well, I finally found the problem...I think.
I ended up replacing all my 14ga wire with 10ga, so I am good there. Problem was I was still blowing fuses. So I took apart the pump, cleaned the impeller and housing and sprayed in some silicone lube. Totally covered the impeller and the metal housing it sits in.
Plugged everything back in, and it now works like a charm. So I think the impeller was just getting stuck in the case for whatever reason.
Glad that it's working now though!!! The wake is killer!!
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OconneOldGuy Newbie
Joined: 13 Jul 2008 Posts: 4 City: Marietta
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Ralph Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 1144 City: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Jun 01, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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IMO running hi current feeds to the switch and back to the pumps is a terrible solution, I strongly recommend that all reversible style pumps be switched with relays located close to the pumps and you only send a low current feed to the dash which energises the relay coils.
_________________ Niiiiiiiiice |
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