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How to wire 3-way switch for reversible ballast pump
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trent27
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 7:22 am    Post subject: How to wire 3-way switch for reversible ballast pump Reply with quote

I've finished installing my ballast system in my boat, but I can't figure out how to wire the switch for my reversible pump. When the pump is off the switch is in the middle. To fill I flip it up and to drain flip it down. I basically have 7 prongs on the back of the switch and 4 wires coming into it. I have positive and negative wires coming from my battery and a positive and negative coming from my pump. I've tried a few different ways, but I keep blowing the 20 amp fuse when I do it incorrectly. The pump is a Jabsco Ballast Puppy and came with a very nice switch. I guess it is the same system that some of the Mastercrafts have in them from the factory. Any help would be appreciated or any websites that you may know of would also work. Thanks
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a volt meter that you can use? What colors are the wires? I could help you figure it out but I think others have used that switch. My guess is two of the wires from the switch go to the battery and the other two go to the pump. If you get a volt meter measure for continuity with the switch up and with the switch down between the four wires. This will tell what is connected with the switch. The wires should swap with the switch. For example, lets say you have wires 1, 2, 3, and 4. With the switch up, 1 is connected to 2 and 3 is connected to 4. Then, with the switch down, 1 should connect to 4 and 3 should connect to 2. In this case, connect 1 and 3 to the battery and 2 and 4 to the pump.

Hope this helps,
Nick
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Last edited by OttoNP on Mar 13, 2011 2:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with that pump. I've had nothing but problems with mine. The flexible impeller is severly prone to heat failure. DO NOT run this pump dry. It will ruin the impeller.
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The back of my switch has each prong numbered from 1 to 7. Stating that wires 1 and 2 are my positive and negative terminals from the battery and wires 3 and 4 are the posiitive and negative wires from the pump then how would I wire it OttoNP? I do have a volt meter, but have no idea how to use it.
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have mine wired like the diagram on the right. I don't know why you have seven prongs on your switch, but this is the basic idea.



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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the wiring diagram Jay. I don't know much about these switches,but the directions that came with mine showed I only had to bring a positive and negative from the battery and the positive and negative from the pump. I noticed that you ran 2 wires from the positive and 2 wires from the negative from your pump. I don't think I have to do that with mine, but I could be wrong. I took some pics of the switch so that maybe someone could tell me exactly where each wire goes. I messed around with wiring the switch earlier today and blew a bunch more fuses. I put a 20 amp fuse on my positive wire from the battery and everytime I put a wire in the wrong place I blow a fuse. If anyone has this switch or knows what wire goes where please let me know as I am stuck and don't know what to do.



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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd try it just like I have it wired. Leave that top right one empty and see what happens. The 7th pole may be for the little light on your switch. Or just go to radio shack and get a $6 DPDT switch. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, the splices I made are only a few inches long from the pump wires. All reversable pumps will work that way.
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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try this



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PostPosted: Jun 12, 2003 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go with what Riverside shows there. It looks as if that would work. Good luck with the pump.
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Riverside. I'll try that when I get home from work. I've tried so many didn't ways, but I don't honestly think I have tried that way. We'll see what happens.
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riverside's idea looks like it may be the solution, but if not follow this procedure with your volt meter. Actually, I would do it this way anyhow because Riverside's idea might work but maybe those splices are not needed.

Your volt meter should have DC Volts, AC volts, and another setting that may have OHMs, resistance, or a horseshoe like shape. This is the setting you want. Another way to find the setting you want is to hold the probes together and go through the settings, find the setting where the meter beeps or the needle/displays something. Bascially you want the setting where the meter does something when you touch the probes together, dig?

I numbered your picture below, with the switch in the off position, measure between each of the poles and see what are connected. I would think that none of them are connected, but maybe 7 and one of them. Now, flip the switch to fill and check again. Now flip the switch to empty and check again. From this you should be able to wire it, but if not post the results back on here.

Your "data" sheet should like this:

Off Fill Empty
1-2
1-3
1-4
1-5
1-6
1-7
2-3
2-4
2-5
2-6
2-7
3-4
3-5
3-6
3-7
4-5
4-6
4-7
5-6
5-7
6-7

If riverside is right, you should find that in fill 1-2 and 4-5 are connected. In empty 2-3 and 5-6 are connected. If 7 is indeed a light it will be connected to either 2 or 5 all the time.
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to everybody for the advice. As it happens, I sussed it myself. Riverside and OttoNP are both correct. Using OttoNP's numbering system (reflects what's on the switch itself) you bring the power in from the battery to the two middle terminals (2 & 5). When the switch is thrown one way it connects 2 to 1 and 5 to 4. In the other direction, it connects 2 to 3 and 5 to 6. Most importantly, it is a break-before-make switch which means that the connections one way are broken before the connections are made the other way. Hence, you need only run one set of wires from the battery and one set of wire back to the pump. By connecting pins 1 & 6 together with a loop of wire and similarly pins 3 & 4, the polarity of the supply to the pump is reversed when the switch is thrown one way compared to the other. Hence it runs the other way. Pin 7 should be connected to the negative (ground) as it provides the earth to ensure the indicator lights come on when either drain or fill is selected. Again, this can easily be achieved with a loop from either pin 2 or 5 depending on which of these you ghave connected to the negative of your battery. Initially I had mine the wrong way round so the fill light was on when it was emptying. I just reversed the wires to the pump to correct. It now works a treat!
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. My main concern was not how to wire the switch itself but how to take advantage of the circuit breakers built into the dash. I'm told these probably aren't up to the mark anyway so I just put a 20A fuse in the line to the switch. Was far simpler! As for RanMan's experience, what do you expect to happen when you spin a rubber impeller at high speed inside a metal housing Question Sure, it gets hot! Whilst you wouldn't run your engine's raw water pump dry because it would result in an engine overheat, even if it didn't, you wouldn't do so 'cos it would wreck the impeller. So why do would you expect a ballast pump (which is almost identical in design) to perform differently Question
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the feedback. I tested Riverside's way and it did work except that when I flipped empty it was filling and when I flipped fill it was emptying. Also, I never even hooked up the #7 terminal, but somehow the light was still coming on. Both lights would turn on when filling or emptying making it hard to determine which way I had flipped the switch. The light lit up both fill and empty light. I will go ahead and try to hook up 5 and 7 for the light. Hopefully that will take care of that problem. I just need to know which wires need to be switched in Riverside's drawing so when I flip fill it fills and empty it empties. I went ahead and used my continuity tester and the results were: Off Fill Empty
1-3 1-2 1-2
1-7 1-3 1-3
3-7 1-7 1-7
2-3 2-3
2-7 2-7
3-7 3-7
5-6 4-5

If someone could just tell me what wires to switch so empty and fill match up I think I should be all set.
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PostPosted: Jun 13, 2003 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, looks like my readout for the off/drain/empty got messed up. Again they were: Off, 1-3, 1-7, 3-7///Fill, 1-2, 1-3, 1-7, 2-3, 2-7, 3-7, 5-6////Empty, 1-2, 1-3, 1-7, 2-3, 2-7, 3-7, 4-5.
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2003 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wired the same pump and switch in successfully. Connect battery to pins 2 & 5 (the middle pair of the 6). Connect the pump to pins 1 and 4 (the top set) and loop wires across from pin 1 to pin 6 and pin 4 to pin 3 (diagonally across the switch). Connect pin 7 to whichever of pins 2 & 5 your negative lead from the battery attaches. The only thing that can go wrong here is that the lights are reversed i.e fill is on when draining and vice versa. If this happens, just reverse the wires to the pump.
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PostPosted: Jun 15, 2003 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrBlean, thanks for the info. I believe I understand now, but want to ask a few more questions to be sure. I understand that I should wire my positive battery terminal to #2 and my negative battery terminal to 5 and then loop to 7. I then should wire the pump positive and negative to # 1 and 4. I assume it doesn't matter which one is positive and negative. I then should loop #1 to #6 and #4 to #3. This should take care of the hitting empty would fill and empty would fill problem I had last time I tried. The only thing I may have to switch around is the positive and negative terminal for #1 and #4 to make sure the correct light lights up when filling and emptying. This is what I understand from your post Jeff and would like it if you could confirm I understood correctly. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Jun 16, 2003 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trent. Fine but for your suggestion about correcting the problem if the lights are the wrong way round. If you swap the wires for 1 and 4 as you suggested, the pump will be wired in the same way round in both switch positions and hence won't reverse direction!

Assuming your pump is the same as mine (a short pair of wires, orange and black at the pump), if the pump runs and reverses correctly but the lights are the wrong way round, simply swap the connections you have made at this point. The other way you could do it is swap the supply from your battery to the switch, i.e. if you have the positive on pin 2 and the negative on pin 5, swap these round. HOWEVER, as pin 7 needs to be connected to the negative of your battery, you need to swap the loop to this to pin match i.e. move to pin 2 from pin 5.

I'll take a photo this evening and post here together with a more detailed description of how the wiring works. That way you can figure it out yourself. It's really easy once you understand (isn't everything?)

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PostPosted: Jun 16, 2003 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I wait to see the pics and hopefully I'll have it all figured out.
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PostPosted: Jun 16, 2003 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any Pics
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PostPosted: Jun 16, 2003 11:58 pm    Post subject: 3-way ballast switch wiring Reply with quote

Trent27

Attached are the photos promised. They’re not great ‘cos I really didn’t want to remove the switch from the dash as I was keen to go boardin’! But if you refer to OttoNP’s photo of the switch with the terminals numbered and follow the instructions below, you can’t go wrong. Believe it or not, you are almost there already! I apologise for the long explanation but I guessed that if I explain in detail how the switching works, even without the photos you (and a whole bunch of other people!) should be able to figure it out.

The switch mechanism is quite simple. In the central “off” position, nothing is connected at all. This is important to know for reasons explained later.

In the “up” position, the central pair of the six pins is connected to the upper pair of pins i.e. pin 2 is connected to pin 1 and pin 5 is connected to pin 4. The remainder of the pins are isolated from one another. In the “down” position, pin 2 is connected to pin 3 and pin 5 is connected to pin 6. The connections previously made to pins 1 & 4 are broken and these pins are now isolated again. This is important.

Therefore, if the positive from the battery is connected to pin 2 and the negative to pin 5, in the “up” position pin 1 is connected to pin 2 and becomes positive and pin 4 is connected to pin 5 and becomes negative. In the “up” position, pins 3 & 6 aren’t connected to anything internally. With the switch in the down position, pin 3 is connected to pin 2 and becomes positive and pin 6 is connected to pin 5 and becomes negative. Pins 1 & 4 aren’t connected to anything internally when the switch is in the “down” position.

If your pump is the same as mine, there are only two wires on the pump, an orange and a black. To make it easy to understand, let’s assume we extend these wires all the way to the switch. If you were to connect the orange wire to pin 1 and the black wire to pin 4, in the “up” position pin 1 becomes positive and pin 4 negative so the pump runs in one direction.

To get the pump to run in the opposite direction, the orange wire needs to be connected to negative and the black wire to positive. Therefore, imagine removing the orange wire from pin 1 and connected it to pin 6 (diagonally opposite pin) and removing the black wire from pin 4 and connected it to pin 3. Now, when the switch is in the “down” position, the orange wire from the pump is now connected to negative and the black wire from the pump is connected to positive. Hence the supply to the pump is reversed when the switch goes from “up” to “down”.

So, two sets of orange and black wires from the pump to the switch with one orange on pin 1 and the other on pin 6 and one black on pin 4 and the other on pin 3 would make the system work. But why run 2 sets of wires? By taking one set of wires from the pump and connecting say, the orange wire to pin 1 and the black wire to pin 4, then making two small loops of wire and connecting pin 1 to pin 6 and pin 4 to pin 3, you achieve exactly the same thing.

In the “up” position, the orange wire is connected to pin 1 which is positive and the black to pin 4 which is negative. The pump runs one way. When the switch is in the “down” position, the internal connections between pins 1 & 2 and pins 5 & 4 inside the switch are broken and the supply to the pump is disconnected.

Because the internal connections inside the switch that are made in the “up” position are broken when the switch is in the “down” position, it is safe to connect the two sides of the switch without fear of shorting anything (and blowing fuses)! So, by inserting two small wire loops across the back of the switch to connect pins 1 & 6 together and 4 & 3 together, you can reverse the supply to the pump.

For, in the “down” position, the orange wire to the pump is still connected to pin 4 which, inside the switch, isn’t connected to anything. Remember, in the “up” position, this pin was negative. But, in the “down” position, if you use the wire loops as suggested, pin 4 is connected, via one wire loop, to pin 3 which in this switch position is positive. Similarly, pin 1 is connected, via the other wire loop, to pin 6 which, in this switch position is negative. Hence in the “up” position, pin 1 is positive and pin 4 negative, in the “down” position pin 1 is negative and pin 4 is positive. Therefore, you can connect your pump to either pins 1 & 4 or 5 & 6, it makes no difference. In either case, the supply is reversed to that pair of pins between “up” and “down” positions and the pump is reversed accordingly. Magic!

The two lamps are connected in such a way that they are across pins 1 & 7 and pins 3 & 7. To make each lamp illuminate it needs to be across the supply (positive one side, negative the other) when the switch is in the appropriate position. Hence, by connecting pin 7 via another small loop to pin 5 assuming this is connected to the negative supply from the battery, this provides the negative for the lamps. So, in the “up” position, one lamp is wired across pin 1 (which is positive) and via pin 7 to pin 5 which is negative and hence the lamp lights. In the “down” position, the second lamp is connected between pin 3 which is now positive and also via pin 7 to pin 5 which remains negative as it’s connected to the negative of the battery. Hence the other lamp lights.

If the pump runs and reverses OK but the lamps don’t correspond to what is happening with the pump, the easiest solution is simply to reverse the connections made at the pump end. In the case above, where the orange and black wires were extended, swap the connections over where the extensions are made. Simply connect the orange extension wire to the black wire on the pump and vice versa. This is the simplest method. The other way to do it is to swap the supply connections to the switch such that pin 5 is connected to the battery positive and pin 2 to the negative. However, in this instance, for the lamps to continue to work you need to maintain pin 7 as the “earth” so the loop connecting it to “earth” (battery negative) now needs to go to the new battery negative (pin 2) rather than pin 5.

The attached photos show the type of terminals used. What I’ve called “double spade terminals” aren’t really that but a female spade connector with a side extension that allows another female to be connected to it. This is the best way of forming the required loop connections between pins. These types of connector aren’t well insulated so there is a danger of them shorting to the adjacent terminals. I avoided this by ensuring the connectors used on the adjacent terminals were fully insulated. This can be seen on the photo “Loops from side”. On the photo “Loops from top” you’ll see the diagonally connected wire that goes from pin 4 (below the red spade connector on pin 7) to pin 3 (at the bottom right of the connector as viewed in this photo) and from pin 3 the feed exits from another double connector to one side of the pump. Also running out of the top right of this photo and parallel to this wire is the other feed to the pump that is connected to pin 6. These are the only wires to the pump.

The loop that goes diagonally from pin 1 to 6 is less clear. It’s confused by the fact that with the exception of the small loop from pin 5 to 7 (narrow gauge red wire) that supplies the earth for the lamps, I have used black insulated cable throughout. Sorry! However, if you look carefully at the photo “Loops from side” you’ll see this loop goes from the insulated connector at the bottom (pin 6) and it reappears at pin 1 which is hidden behind the very top connector (pin 7). The negative feed from the battery is the wire on pin 5 which, via the double connector loops up using the red cable to pin 7 at the top. Behind pin 5 is pin 2 which is where the positive from the battery is connected

So, to summarise all the above: run two wires to the pump from pins 3 & 6 respectively (insert a 20A fuse in one), two wires from the battery to pins 2 & 5 respectively, run two wire loops to connect pins 1 & 6 together and 3 & 4 together. Add a final wire loop to connect pin 5 to pin 7 together. Do that and you’re in business!




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PostPosted: Jun 17, 2003 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the pics and detailed info MrBlean. I believe I understand it all now. I'll try reinstalling the switch this weekend and let you know how it goes. I just hope the pump will fill when in the fill posistion and empty when in the empy position. That was the only thing that I couldn't get before. Everytime I flipped the fill it emptied and when I flipped empty it filled. I'm assuming I can take care of that problem by switching pins 1 and 4 and pins 3 and 6. If I vise versa them it should reverse the polarty the right way so the pump switch would hopefully run in the correct direction when I flip the switch. Thanks for all the help.
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PostPosted: Jun 17, 2003 2:43 pm    Post subject: Lamp problem Reply with quote

Trent - if the lamp issue is your only problem, don't mess about with the wiring on the switch. Simply swap the wires at the point you made the connections to the pump. As per my description, if the flying leads on your pump are about a foot long and coloured orange and black as they are on mine, just swap whatever wires you have used to reach and connect to these leads from the switch. That should solve the problem.
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PostPosted: Jun 18, 2003 10:55 am    Post subject: Another solution Reply with quote

Trent27 - I have just re-read the data sheet supplied with my recently installed pump to see if I could glean anything useful therefrom that may shed light on the difficulties experienced by RanMan and others on another thread.

Interestingly, it says that to reverse the flow, you can simply remove the pump head and re-connect to the motor body in the other orientation. So, if the plumbing you’ve used isn’t rigidly fixed, there’s another way of solving your incorrect lamp problem.

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PostPosted: Jun 18, 2003 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I did see where I had the option. The way my pump is mounted I would have to remove the hoses and the pump and then work on taking the end covers off the pump and switching the pump head around. I was hoping I could reverse the fill/empty problem by just reversing the wiring as it would be somewhat of a job to turn the pump head around. Thanks for the advise through, but at this point I'm leaving it as my last option.
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 12:13 am    Post subject: Can't move pump head Reply with quote

Trent27: If you are correct and your pump worked correctly but for the lamps, I am 100% confident that if you just swap the wires to the pump, preferably at the pump end rather than messing around at the switch end, your problem will go away. How can I be so confident? 'Cos I had the same problem myself and that's how I solved it!
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OttoNP
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you guys got everything working, but your continuity tests must be wrong or there would be a short. Did you do them with the switch disconnected from everything? Probably doesn't really matter, I'm just curious now.

Nick
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Last edited by OttoNP on Mar 13, 2011 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did the continuity test with nothing attached to it. I did it twice and it came out the same. Maybe I messed up, but I think it's correct. Either way though I got it work, but just need to make a few adjustments so the switch works how it should. Hopefully it's not a faulty switch. Thanks for all the help!
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 7:03 am    Post subject: Continuity testing Reply with quote

You have to be careful when using a meter on this switch because the presence of the bulbs across the terminals gives false continuity readings. That's what confused me in the first instance. Once I realised how the switch was configured (I took it apart!) it was obvious. If you wire it up this way, it'll work:

Supply to pins 2 and 5 (positive to pin 2)
The pump to either pins 1 & 4 or 3 & 6
Insert wire loops from pin 1 to 6 and pin 3 to 4
A loop from pin 5 to pin 7

If the pump direction and indicator lamps don't match up, simply swap the wires from the pump i.e if you've put them on 1 & 4, swap the wire on pin 1 for pin 4 and vice versa. If you've connected the pump to pins 3 and 6, swap the wire on pin 3 for pin 6 and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I should have said that I meant a very low resistance, I'd bet the connection when it is off from 1-7 is like 6 or more ohms, the connection from 3-7 is ths same ohms and from 1-3 is twice as many ohms. It may be weird if the light is from a diode (LED). So just for fun I draw the below picture....

I started wondering why they didn't just connect 1 to 6 and 3 to 4 inside the switch, but with them unconnected you could easily use that same switch to run two different pumps. Can you buy that switch separate? People ask about doing this all the time on here. Also, you could wire 7 so that the light only lights up when your other boat switchs light up, though I think I would make it light up all the time.
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Last edited by OttoNP on Mar 13, 2011 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I believe you can purchase them individually. Check out the bottom link. That is the website that makes this switch. It is the Contura series switch listed in the website. I don't think you can buy the switch directly from that site, but it does have a dealer locator option.

http://www.carlingtech.com/products/switches/switches.asp

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PostPosted: Jun 19, 2003 2:33 pm    Post subject: Carling Tech Switches Reply with quote

Nick, If switch was hard wired internally you'd have to run 2 sets of wires to the pump. As you correctly surmise, you can use this switch to run two pumps, one for drain, one for fill. In this configuration the pumps don't need to reverse, they are simply on and off. Hence, you don't need to mess around using the switch to change the polarity of the supply. You just wire one pump across pins 1 & 4 and the other across 3 & 6.

Rather than wire the switch in so that it only comes on with the other lights (we don't board in the dark!) it would make more sense to wire the switch in such that it only operates with either the ignition on or in its auxilliary position. That way you can't knock the switch on accidentally and forget it. This would be a particular problem when say, packing up for the day. You could return to at best a flat battery, a knackered pump and burst sacs or at worst a boat laying on the bottom of the lake having filled up with water and sunk!

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PostPosted: Jun 20, 2003 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the switch was hard wired internally you wouldn't need 2 sets of wire, you would do everything the same but you wouldn't have to connect 1-6, 2-4, or 7-5. It would just limit what you could do with that switch. Also, I agree the switch's total power should be ignition based, I was just talking about the light of the switch. You could connect 7 to the switch that controls your lighting, then the light in the switch would only come on when your boat lights are on and not during the day. Or, if you were really cool you could get a light sensor and make your boat lights come on automatically, like they do in newer cars.

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Last edited by OttoNP on Mar 13, 2011 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Jun 20, 2003 5:38 am    Post subject: Wired internally Reply with quote

Nick, you're right about the internal wiring. If it was done such that the polarity was flipped internally yoiu'd still only need 1 set of wires to the pump. But then the switch would only need 4 terminals plus the extra for the lamp earth. I guess it's supplied in the form it is to act as a "universal" switch for use with a reversible pump and/or a twin pump set up. Pity that Jabsco don't supply a wiring diagram to save the less well electrically-educated all this hassle!

My dash lights only come on when the nav lights are on. I think it's far more useful to be able to see the ballast switch lights all the time so you can tell if it's on. There's very little movement from between the central and drain/fill positions and it wuld be easy to hit with you knee and switch on without realising. My pump is mounted in the rear of the boat and isn't that easy to hear. The light(s) are useful warning indicators - even in daylight.

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