Any Builders / Construction people here?

[ontrider]

What are the differences in sub-floors (5/8 aspenite vs. solid plywood)? I know that plywood is recommended for installing hardwood over, but besides that is there a huge difference? What about when installing tiles? And do you know what the cost difference is in materials?

[lcap]

Aspenite AKA Oriented Strand Board is GARBAGE!!! Only one small step above particle board but not anywhere close to plywood for strength or durability or exposure to weather or moisture. Anyone that has any doubts look at the spacing requirements on OSB vs. plywood on walls, subfloors and roofs. In addition look at the roofing requirements for spacing clips on roofs because OSB shrinks and swells A LOT more than plywood.

All these are reasons OSB thankfully hasn't been accepted in the commercial/industrial construction world. Except for temporary floor or landscape protection that is.

Ont. It's not worth saving the $200 on the sub floor.

ALSO make certain the floor is glued to the floor joists. It's cheap and nothing worse than squeaks.

[ontrider]

[lcap]

It's not worth the cost difference. It's in the market because residential contractors will do ANYTHING to save a single $0.05. I say that in all sincerity, the crap they build, the corners they cut to save a nickel blow my mind. To me the quality of the final product governs whatever decisions I make professionally and when I do stuff personally. I can't afford mistakes, sub standard materials, sub standard equipment, sub standard labor. My clients don't accept re-work.

When I make suggestions on building I promise you and everyone else it's with my best intentions and experiences. It rarely will be the cheapest, rarely without objections (most residential builders like the easy cheap way), but if the suggestions are followed the product will outlast you or your kids.

[lcap]

ontrider,

Go to a lumber yard, the difference on equal thickness: 1/2", 3/4" OSB vs, 1/2", 3/4" CDX plywood is about $2.00/sheet less for OSB. A sheet is 32 S.F. so it's saves $0.0625/S.F. for OSB. So for a 3000 SF floor or walls or roof sheeting will save you $187.5 for OSB.

With 8.0% Sales tax you save a total of $202.50. Sorry the $200 was an off the cuff guess.

[pyrocasto]

Plywood is definitely much better. Plywood would probably be ~$20 a sheet and OSB is about $5 a sheet. The ply wood is still worth it IMO. We pretty much only use OSB at our shop for building interior walls quick and cheap in the shop that will never be painted or covered anyway.

lcap, 1/2 ply is $7 a sheet there?

[ontrider]

lcap, not a bad estimate. And you're right, they will generally save pennies in any area they can. I can't really blame them, because I would do the same in a cookie cutter residential market. Most consumers don't have a freaking clue about anything let alone materials so why wouldn't they.

Edit - so we have 2 very different estimates now.

[kmagnuss]

lcap is dead on again. Only the higher quality home builders would use the OSB in FL, and even then it was usually only when they were puttin tile roofs on.

If you're going to put tile on top of wood, sometimes it's a good idea to put an underlayment on the seams of the wood before you lay the tile. At least, in FL we got less cracks in the tile with that. I forget what the stuff is called. Sorry. It's been awhile. Cork works well too, and dampens the noise for 2nd story tile.

[lcap]

Not really two different estimates. CDX plywood is about $2.00 more per sheet than OSB. If you do go with OSB for the subfloor a least make certain the contractor doesn't try and pound the sheets together. OSB manufacturers have attempted to make the installation idiot proof by leaving a gap in the tongue and groove subfloor products. Unfortunately many contractors don't know this, they don't read directions, so they get out a 20lb sledgehammer to close the gap.

[pyrocasto]

Wow I went to Lowes tonight for some hardware and saw that OSB has doubled in the last few months! Unless maybe I'm just tired and was looking at the wrong stuff, but I think not.

[WakeTech]

Sorry to hijack the thread, however since we are on the topic of subfloors. What are your opinions on dricore for a basement subfloor (www.dricore.com). I am finsishing my basment and I am thinking of using this.

Thanks

[sandm]

I use 3/4 osb and have not had an issue. lots of nails and several cases of liquid nails adhesive will stop most squeaks.
as for tile, I always set over hardibacker, unless house has a slab foundation.
plywood is overkill for a floor imo.
as long as you use a thick osb and don't install during the wet weather, you will be fine.

we also use osb for the siding and roof here..

[lcap]

sandm

If you actually live in Boise you live in a State without an adopted building code. If you work for a contractor or are one, you don't have to live with the squeaks in the floor. You don't have to live with ripples that transfer through the roofing. You don't have to live with siding nails popping out. Tile that cracks, etc. Now these are the things you expect IF and thats a damn big IF the contractor actually adheres to the manufacturers instructions. I'd bet only 1 out of 1,000 residential contractors submit on, read about, or follow the manufactures instructions for the materials they install.

OSB is not nearly as structurally stable as Plywood. The glue and the orientation haven't been dialed in.

[sandm]

yea, we don't have any adopted building codes. houses have been built around here for decades using osb. sure, some houses get an occasional squeak or groan, but plywood will do the same thing if not installed correctly. The first house I built was in 95, and no issues yet.
now I see issues every so often with siding popping nails. not due to the osb sheeting, but due to using cottage lap siding. it's cheap. hardibacker won't do it, and warranties their product for 50 years when installed over osb. prob. here is that it's a 3-4k premium over cottage lap, and 95% of the market won't pay the extra $$. you can't include it in the price as then you are bidding against someone who isn't, and guess what, they get the bid due to a cheaper price-per-sq-ft...
osb really isn't a bad product as long as you install it correctly, yea it's not plywood, but it's also cheaper..

[lcap]

sandm


You can include the education to the consumer who can then decide if they want garbage or to spend an extra $300 on a $300,000 house.

Today's quiz: Do you use clips on your OSB roof sheathing?

[gswake]

lcap, no, he uses staples. They cost less than nails and have twice the "legs" so they have more holding power!

(And where's the smiley with the tongue so firmly in cheek it sticks out the side?)

[lcap]

STAPLES??? Residential contractors use Staples? Oh good heavens!

There is so much literature about how bad OSB is compared to CDX Plywood it amazes me anyone would even consider it, let alone use it. Residential contractor or not, they should be aware.

OSB edges telegraph through asphalt roofs. Code and the APA (American Plywood Association) mandate the use of plywood clips on OSB roof sheathing. OSB swells at the edges 2 to 3 times more than Plywood. These edges then show up on the roof. OSB never looses the water, so if you have a roof leak, that water is there for mold to grow forever.

80% of the damage from Hurricane Andrew was a result of roofs flying off. Anyone guess which projectiles were flying? Yes, it was OSB. The results of the studies have prompted most municipalities in Florida to OUTLAW OSB for roof sheathing.

I could go on, but by now anyone willing to save a few dollars per sheet for OSB is going to do it no matter what is said.

[lcap]

Since this was a question about flooring, here are the recommendations of the National Oak Flooring Association (NOFA) for subfloors:

http://www.nofma.org/Portals/0/Publications/Moore%2010_03.pdf

They recommend 5/8" or thicker PLYWOOD or 3/4" or thicker OSB.

There goes the $2.00 savings, now it'll cost you more to put in the garbage vs. the right product.

[sandm]

yes I do use clips for spacing and staples to hold it down. that's code here. probably a lot different in a hurricane or tornado-prone zone.. wind has hit 40mph sustained here maybe 2-3 times for a few hours in the last 5 years. only had 1 tornado in recent memory and was out in the desert.

bottom line is up here, we all use osb for building. I dont' know one builder that uses plywood, so if you move up here and try to find a house for sale built out of plywood, you will be looking for a LONG time. any material, including plywood will have issues if it is not installed correctly, which is why I only build 2-3 houses a year and am on the jobsite EVERY day.

get some of the larger construction companies that have $9/hr framers being inspected by $12/hr super's, and both are just there to collect a payched with no regard for what happens are part of the problem to a poorly built house..

if you really want to carry this conversation further, why are all builders not building energy efficient houses? would save in fuel and electricity useage and is a good thing for the environment?

bottom line is this can go on forever. the builders in this valley will continue to use osb until consumers or the state building codes say differently.

[churchy]

sandm, what is the name of your company.

[gswake]

[lcap]

sandm

Idaho finally adopted (PART) of the Uniform Building Code BUT it's only PART of the CODE and it only applies to PUBLIC WORKS, not residential. I imagine to get Federal Money the State finally had to cave in.

As for the rest, so far you are the typical Residential Contractor that really, really gets under my skin. You're THAT guy who gives ALL OF US a bad name. Construction is my chosen profession, not a hobby. I am constantly studying, taking classes, reading and requiring my PM's to do the same. I have to know what works and what doesn't.

In Commercial construction I have a 7 year latent defect clause which means that if I build something and someone finds out the OSB failed 10 years from now, whoever found the defect has another 7 years to sue me. Basically they have my lifetime to sue me.

In the short term, a Carpenters Weighted Wage Rate is $53.25/hr (this is what it costs me--no trucks, phones, gas, overhead, profit) a Pipefitter/Plumber is $64.56/hr. If I use the wrong material, cheap stuff and we have to remove and replace, well I just lost A LOT OF MONEY! A LOT MORE than the nickels I may have saved up front. As a result, no Valves made outside the US. No fittings from China. No foreign made pumps. No OSB, even if it were allowed, which it's not. Since by Union rules I have to supply hand tools and power tools, we buy only the best. Can't afford a broken $50 tool holding up a $250/hr crew.

Saying all this, one important lesson I was taught early on in this game is you can be a "follower and try to protect your market" or you can "create your own niche."

Trust me on this, creating a niche makes sleeping at night A LOT easier! The first step in the creation of the niche is make yourself better than the commodity contractors you are currently swimming with. Be on time, make your subcontractors be on time, use subcontractors who's work you know and trust, insist on safety---PPE (Hard Hats, Long Pants, Work Boots, Hearing Protection, eye Protection, etc.), know your materials and use that as a selling point:

1. Plywood over OSB
2. Cast Iron Risers in plumbing
3. Air Gap fittings in plumbing
4. Glued and nailed subfloor
5. Hand nailed roofing
6. Electrical Panel sized for future expansion
7. Outlets no more than every 8' in bedrooms
8. 20 Amp outlets in garage
9. Separate circuits for bathrooms--women won't blow a breaker every time they plug in their hair dryer


The list goes on and on and on. Use the corners your competition cuts to get the work at a higher margin vs. getting in the mud with them.

Some good books to start with are "Houses are Designed by Geniuses & Built by Gorillas: An Insider's Guide to Designing and Building a Home" and "The Well-Built House." I have others but these two are my favorites.

[oshensurfer]

...and that's why I love lcap. The definition of a true "professional".

[finkle]

[oshensurfer]

finkle, My feeling is that they obliterate the edges of the wood and miss the 2X material they are nailing it to without noticing for the sheathing.

Using a nail gun on shingles, alot of guys will blow through the shingles and not replace them making it very easy to blow off in the next wind and/or cause leaks.

This is again, the desire to either do it right vs do it fast.

[oshensurfer]

Not to mention, more injuries happen with the guns.

[boardordie]

[sandm]

Yes, idaho has adopted part for commercial, and the reg's are much tougher for commercial, however we also have mechanical and framing inspections for residential, and have certain state-mandated requirements to pass in order to get a c of o for the homeowner. I won't talk commercial here, as I don't do, nor have the first incling of what goes into a commercial structure, however I do understand residential construction and know what works.. in our area.
I follow about half of your guides above, however don't follow a few.
1-osb is an accepted building material and has been used here for years. maybe you don't believe in it, but there are thousands upon thousands of houses IN MY AREA that have no issues with it.
2-my plumbers use pexpipe for all runs, terminating with copper pipe for the hookups. pex is an industry standard, and copper has been used for how many years everywhere
3-don't use airgaps here and don't need them.
5-hand nailed roofing. I can see the point, but it's really not needed. a good roofer knows how to roof and will stand behind their work.
all the other points I already use and believe in, and are good thoughts for a residential building. I have a list of my own that I use in every project, such as insulating the mbr and laundry for noise, only low-e windows, I don't use any vinyl or formica, all slab granite counters and tile floors, extra outlets on 20amp circuits and dedicated freezer circuits in garage along with dedicated xmas outlets, 4ft wide staircases in every location for ease of moving furniture, fully insulated garages, 93% furnaces for energy savings, along with dual-zone systems for 2story houses for comfort, 200amp service with a minimum of 3 blank locations for addon breakers(for the hot tub or welder), etc....

I resent the fact that you think I give contractors a bad name. I would put my product up against anyone here in the valley(again, building for MY area, not yours) and see how it stacks up. I can read your posts and see that you have a good working knowledge of the construction industry and probably produce a good product, but don't assume that anyone else is a hack.

this thread started as a question toward osb and plywood. both are approved building materials, and many will have opinions about both. I choose to use it and have not had any issues with it. you may choose not to have anything to do with it. really boils down to a preference.

[lcap]

sandm,

You keep proving my point. Air Gaps ARE REQUIRED under EVERY MECHANICAL/PLUMBING CODE IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY ARE REQUIRED ON ALL "FAST ACTING VALVES: Washers, Ice Makers, Dishwashers. Read about what "Water Hammer" does to pipes over time. So either you don't have a residential code or your inspectors don't know how to read. To save you some time, Water Hammer blows out the fittings---causing catastrophic leaks.

OSB isn't even approved for roofing by the OSB's West Coast Representative. Don't believe me call LP and ask for their OSB West Coasts rep and ask him what he'd allow for his roof sheathing. I'll give you a hint, because I already made the call---Plywood.

Cast Iron has nothing to do with "copper" pipe---Cast Iron is for drainage; i.e. sanitary sewer, not domestic water supply. And an FYI: PEX isn't an "industry standard" actually far, far, far from it. Google "PEX Class Action Lawsuits" and you'll understand my point. PEX is acceptable for hockey rinks where it's encased in concrete, beyond that, nope.

I build all over the Country. The standards, except for Seismic Zones, are the same.

Finally "3 blank addon breakers" I suppose is cool because someone MAY get to pick between a Hot Tub or a Welder but certainly not both. A 200 AMP service is a marginal panel for a 2,000 S.F house.

Again, you're like most residential builders I've known and worked with for decades. "Why do you use this or do it that way?" Answer: " Because I've done it this way for 20 years." I respond: "How does it feel to have cheated people for 20 years?"


Your answers reaffirm my conviction that it should be mandatory that ALL contractors have to take a test before they get a phone line and $300 worth of tools from Home Depot. Beyond the coffee table contractor bashing I get because of bad contractors, I also have to pay more in insurance because of incompetent contractors. That later irks me as much as the former.

[lcap]

Here is some background on your "industry standard PEX:"

[lcap]

Not to beat a dead dog but more on the "industry standard PEX:"

[gswake]

FWIW, some friends here bought a house a few years ago that had PEX (which they did not know at the time.) Sprung a leak, plumber called in, informed them that PEX was no longer acceptable (by local code, but I'm not sure if it was city or state) and he would have to upgrade in order to work on it at all. So what could have been a simple repair turned into a much larger project. Oh - and PEX is not "industry standard" here.

sandm, I am not questioning your integrity or ability. But follow lcap's lead and educate yourself - independently from what manufacturers or other sources tell you. (Even lcap or anyone else here.) Especially if they have in interest in what your (or your industry's) choice is (e.g. manufacturers.) It doesn't seem like you know what air gaps in plumbing are (or their purpose.) And even shingle manufacturers say you should hand nail. (I don't think there's a concern with using air nailers for sheathing - though you should still be sure that the nail did not miss framing. But as you say, any professional should be able to tell that.)

The fact that building practices "have been widely used without problems for many years" doesn't mean they're good. That's how the building codes have evolved. Over time, we discover that something doesn't work well; or that it is dangerous in rare situations (like heavy storms that only happen once in ten years.) Things that were "cutting edge" and "state of the art" twenty years ago might now be outlawed. Current practice is no guarantee of quality work.

And please - learn from what happens in other areas of the country. You may not have the same frequency of earthquakes or hurricane winds, but that doesn't mean that you can't discover deficiencies of products from those cases that make them undesirable for your uses as well.

[sandm]

ya know, we can go round and round forever. bottom line is you can choose to hate me, and that's fine. sine you are not here in idaho, I really dont' care. I build a good product and will put it up against anything residential you would build here(my last house had more activity in tuscany that any other house in the last 6 months and sold before it was finished, something that no other house in the last 6 months of 2007 was able to claim). I am assuming that if you are building all over the country and based on some of your comments, that you deal primarily in commercial or multi-unit residential, so if you ever get to boise, lets have a conversation over a beer/coffee(I know that no one is going to bring you all the way out here to build a residential house). hey, if it's in the summer, we can spend it on the lake
as far as lawsuits, there are class actions on everything anymore. pex may not be an official industry standard, but it's what 99% of the plumbers are using here(for residential) and it works. we do have pretty strict mechanical codes that all must pass(residential and commercial). reading the post above, the breaks were in the garage, not the walls. that would tell me that there is something in the connections in the manifold, not the actual pipe? and the black crap in the plumbing? perhaps someone installed it incorrectly? system is mixing drinking water with the water used to heat with?(unless we are there to inspect it, I don't think it's our place to comment on it. It looks to me more like a shoddy install than faulty pipe, but again, I'm not there) and the lawsuit above is citing examples starting in the 1980's. initially, I would not be surprised to see pex have issues, however lets look at their product installed in the last 10 years. they may have had issues their first few years, and probably turned a lot of people off of their product. my plumbers love it and it works. they have been installing it for 10 years wtihout a single callback for a broken pipe or fitting. all of their repairs have been because someone hits the pipe with a nail or staple.
as far as a 200amp service, we use that for all houses up to 3500sqft. it's more than adequite when wired correctly. yes, a 400amp service would be nice, but in the real world, what % of people really need extra blanks in a panel? here, less than 10%, and those that do usually have a requirement that forces them to custom build and design it from the start.
if you want to come to idaho and build residential(again take your commercial hat off as I don't touch it and won't comment on it), you will be broke if you try to build in the sub500k market and try to add all the niceties that you are talking about. start adding a few grand for copper pipe, few grand for plywood, 1500k for a 400amp service, a grand for a hand-nailed roof, and pretty soon you're 10k over the same house next door. you are not selling that piece of property, a realtor is. do you think they care about all that stuff and will work to sell it? no. a perfect example is our energy star program here. cost around 7k more to build a house. builders are having a hard time selling it as consumers don't want to pay for it.

I understand your frustration with people like me and can respect that. I know that there are others in this valley that hate anyone else that starts building, but until you can actually see a product that I build IN MY AREA to the codes and expectations IN MY AREA, then we are carrying on a pointless conversation. choose to call me out here and cite fact after fact. it's ok with me. until you actually see/touch/feel my product it's pointless.


CHURCHY: my company is SD Construction. I am living in a house I finished earlier this year in strada bellissima, the corner of meridian rd and victory. 353 galvani is the addy(it's a small sub and I'm 1 of 2 houses finished on the street). you are more than welcome to stop by anytime and I'll give ya a tour of what I build and talk boarding. I am new to the sport and take any advice I can get not much of a wakeboarder yet, but love to surf. did it once at lucky peak behind my cousins tige and sold me. bought a supra 2 weeks later.

[gswake]

[churchy]

sandm, cool.. Yep, I know where Tuscany and Strada are. We looked over there a bit. I live in SE Boise, but it sounds like I may have to start working in Meridian or Nampa. Therefore, I have been looking at houses, lots, etc. on that end of town. I looked at a couple of Eric Evans' houses in Strada. I also found a house I really like in Tuscany. Not sure what I'll end up doing. I am thinking about downsizing into the 500K range and putting the extra $$ into something else. Do you have a website?