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The Truth Behind Comp Vests (Non USCGA vests)
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Puck3tt
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

booby bunny wrote:
haugy wrote:
It's a fad endorsed by riders and their sponsors.


Yup.

I am sorry you lost your brother, with permission I want to copy and paste this to some family members who ride with a non aproved vest.

I hope you and your family continue to ride and play out on the lake. It would be the best way to honor your brother.


Please, I encourage everyone to spread the word. I know a lot of people on this forum are aware of the risks of these jackets, and that's because it's discussed here more. There are still a bunch of people who aren't aware of the risks of these jackets.

I received another email from JP from a different person and it's just as bad as the other one's I got.

Quote:
The A-10 has neutral flotation (equal flotation front & back) so it will
not float you in a face up position should you get knocked unconscious.
Yes it will float you. Though not as well as an approved vest. The A-10
is a competition vest designed for maximum performance. Only to be used
by experienced riders. under supervision.

If safety is a concern you should purchase one of our USCGA Vests. If
you have any more questions on the proper vest selection for you feel
free to give me a call.


The people who work there don't even know about their own vests, or the company itself doesn't.

We're definitely going to pursue something against JP about this.
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jt09
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:
We're definitely going to pursue something against JP about this.


Please do. I can't wait to see the outcome.
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you going to "pursue?" A lawsuit? Do you want money, or are you trying to force more consistent/stricter labeling, etc.? I see some hypocrisy involved here. Everyone decries the numerous warning labels splattered all over new boats, etc. these days, but how do you think they got there? Are they good, or are they bad?

I certainly concur that JP seems to be giving ambiguous and convoluted information. "The A-10 has neutral flotation (equal flotation front & back) so it will not float you in a face up position should you get knocked unconscious." I don't know if the implication was intentional, but that seems to suggest that their approved vest will float you face up. That is 100% false and misleading.

"Only to be used by experienced riders. under supervision." This one has always puzzled me. The more experienced you are, the more likely it is that you're doing tricks that greatly increase your chances of getting knocked out. If you sink, you sink - it doesn't matter how many people are "supervising." By the time they get back to where the person went down, the chances of finding the person in time to save their life are pretty slim, IMO.

Regardless of what you choose to do, I wish you and your family well during what I know is a very difficult time. Good luck to you.
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swass, good analysis.
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhhhh..... You pursue a lawsuit for the purposes of being compensated for a loss due to the negligence or wrongful conduct of a third party. Unfortunately, because we can't simply replace loved ones, money is the only form of compensation available in situations like these. That doesn't mean anyone is greedy or motived by the wrong reasons, it's just the way things are. Byproducts of a successful lawsuit over this type of thing are bad press for the company involved and a precedent for future lawsuits unless remedial measures are taken - thus forcing change.

This is appears to be a failure to warn lawsuit. The issue will be whether JP adequatly warned that its nonCGA vests will not float you if you are knocked unconscious. I've got three nonCGA vests at the house (a stance, a vapor and a falcon). I know I've seen and read warnings regarding the vests not being "approved life saving devises," but I don't recall ever reading anything that said "If you get knocked unconscious wearing this vest you will not float." Whether that language should be required, I don't know. That seems to be a question for a jury to decide. Think about all of the warnings that are on cigarettes, that are on tubes, alcohol, etc.....
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your condescending "uhhhh..." was for me. Thanks.

My distinction was poorly worded. I'm wondering if he's going to ask JP specifically to change their labeling practices (he mentioned a lack of warnings on their web site) under threat of a lawsuit, or what exactly it is he's pursuing.
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning wrote:
Uhhhh..... You pursue a lawsuit for the purposes of being compensated for a loss due to the negligence or wrongful conduct of a third party. Unfortunately, because we can't simply replace loved ones, money is the only form of compensation available in situations like these. .....


Actually, the point Swass was making (to assume I know) is that there is no REAL compensation for the loss of a loved one. Some people choose not to pursue a lawsuit because they realize that money won't make any difference.

02lightning wrote:
This is appears to be a failure to warn lawsuit. The issue will be whether JP adequatly warned that its nonCGA vests will not float you if you are knocked unconscious. I've got three nonCGA vests at the house (a stance, a vapor and a falcon). I know I've seen and read warnings regarding the vests not being "approved life saving devises," but I don't recall ever reading anything that said "If you get knocked unconscious wearing this vest you will not float." Whether that language should be required, I don't know. That seems to be a question for a jury to decide. Think about all of the warnings that are on cigarettes, that are on tubes, alcohol, etc.....


I think that if you know what an "approved life saving device" is, and what it will do, and you know that what you are using isn't one, that is sufficient. This type of occurrence is where stupid labels and obvious warnings come from. Do you need to be told that if you get in the bathtub with your hairdryer that it could kill you?
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lukewtwt wrote:
I think that if you know what an "approved life saving devise" is, and what it will do, and you know that what you are using isn't one, that is sufficient.

^^^^

Some are forgetting that there are LAWS in most areas stating you must wear an approved PFD while participating in such watersports. This should be enough to place the responsibility on the persons involved and not the equipment manufacturer. Like some have mentioned that a mirror or spotter means you don't need a vest, how can you blame the vest when it's not even a safety requirement?

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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Some are forgetting that there are LAWS in most areas stating you must wear an approved PFD while participating in such watersports. This should be enough to place the responsibility on the persons involved and not the equipment manufacturer. Like some have mentioned that a mirror or spotter means you don't need a vest, how can you blame the vest when it's not even a safety requirement?



That is a good point. A defense to liability in some jurisdictions is that a plaintiff was negligent per se, or in violation of a law. That being said, it still seems that an argument could be made that a reasonable person who buys a non-CGA approved life jacket has the reasonable expectation that it would prevent you from sinking. A reasonable person may also believe that a CGA approved vest will cause you to float on your back and have a certain level of bouyancy. Now, is it unreasonable to expect that a vest is non-CGA approved simply because it doesn't roll you over or float as well as a CGA jacket; yet, not just sink. That's the ultimate question.

At the end of the day, that's where warnings come in. There are laws/restrictions out there regarding how much weight/people can be put in a boat. We've all seen those stickers on our boats (11 people or 1250lbs for example). However, a number of us routinely exceed the weight limits by having people on our boats AND filling our ballast. Is it reasonable to expect that a boat with full ballast and ten people (a boat that's rated for 10 people) won't sink? I think it is. I would be pissed if my VLX sank just because I filled the ballast and had 10 people on it at the same time.

If Malibu knew that putting 11 people in a VLX and filling the ballast would cause it to sink, and knowing that this is a routine practice of many owners of their boats, it seems reasonble to hold them responsible for warning of such a potential danger. Obviously, a VLX normally sink with a boatload and full ballast; therefore, the weight warning is little bitty and not that noticable.

If I buy a jacket that's non-CGA approved, I expect it to still float me. If it won't float me AT ALL, then I need to be made aware of that, not just that it doesn't meet some criteria that I don't even know.

Maybe you guys don't agree, but I guess my question is how many people would really be supprised to see one of your buddies who was wearing a non-cga vest crash and completely sink? It would supprise me.
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Puck3tt that's so terrible. But I really appreciate you posting this. The other day at overton's (I was picking up a rope for my aunt's tube) i saw an a-10 and couldn't believe how light and comfy it felt. I thought that it would be my next vest when I'm in the market for a new one in a year or two. But after this, I will never use one, or let anyone else on my boat use one. Thank you very much for sharing. I'm so sorry again, but you will save lives with this story. I wish you and your family the best..
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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning, so, the words NOT A LIFESAVING DEVICE stamped on the inside of every non-cga vest that JP makes is not good enough?

Failure to warn? Seems like it warns you right on the device itself.

Quote:
Maybe you guys don't agree, but I guess my question is how many people would really be supprised to see one of your buddies who was wearing a non-cga vest crash and completely sink? It would supprise me


Wouldn't surprise me. Those vests do jack squat without air in your lungs. Get knocked out, or even just get a bit winded and you can sink.


Puck3tt, I whole-heartedly ask that you do not bring suit against JP. Your brother knew the risks, and that is the bottom line. Ignorance is not a good reason to take a company to task over.

I am sorry for your loss. Do this country and your brother's legacy a favor and not make this about money. Use this as a sounding board to educate others on the dangers of not wearing approved vests.

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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, thats terrible about your brother. My deepest sympathies go out to you and your family.
Puck3tt wrote:
We're definitely going to pursue something against JP about this.

I would love to know exactly what you mean by this. I hope it isn't what I think it is.

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PostPosted: Sep 27, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're all sorry about your brother (I think any sane compassionate person is obviously)

But even in light of his tragedy, I'm still going to continue wearing my non-uscg vest. I wear it when I go jetskiing. Even when the sheriff is out, you can't tell the difference. It's let bulky. I wear the Rip Curl Stealth vest. When I split my head open with my wakeboard last month, I was holding my head while bleeding, and for my small body size it offered plenty of float. I've taken some of my hardest body crashes EVER this season while wearing it and it has offered plenty of protection.

The reason I wear my non-cga vest: it's comfortable and not bulky. Even while snowboarding I wear thinnest clothing possible. I hate bulk and like freedom of movement.
If I die, that's fine. I don't have kids, spouse, nothing. If something happened and I died, a few people would be sad at first, but they'd quickly get over it.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

H20orSnowLetsGo wrote:
We're all sorry about your brother (I think any sane compassionate person is obviously)

But even in light of his tragedy, I'm still going to continue wearing my non-uscg vest. I wear it when I go jetskiing. Even when the sheriff is out, you can't tell the difference. It's let bulky. I wear the Rip Curl Stealth vest. When I split my head open with my wakeboard last month, I was holding my head while bleeding, and for my small body size it offered plenty of float. I've taken some of my hardest body crashes EVER this season while wearing it and it has offered plenty of protection.

The reason I wear my non-cga vest: it's comfortable and not bulky. Even while snowboarding I wear thinnest clothing possible. I hate bulk and like freedom of movement.
If I die, that's fine. I don't have kids, spouse, nothing. If something happened and I died, a few people would be sad at first, but they'd quickly get over it.



There you have it people. In evidence of a tragedy, the choice is still to be careless and stupid.

There are warning labels on cigarettes, alcohol, washer, dryers, vitamin bottles, infant wear.... there are even warnings on tampon boxes and bottles of lighter fluid.
Since this country is so sue happy, common sense is no longer allowed to exist.

I am sorry what happend, but I cannot sit here and continue to read " What does it really mean" to stand back and comment on the loss/lack of common sense or in some cases ignorance ( see above post).

Non CGA means it not approved as a personal flotation device.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grabbed this off ww. first article i had seen...

Quote:
Adam Puckett set out Sunday for a day on the Amite River, equipped with a wakeboard, a boat and a life vest marketed as "the comp vest that all comp vests want to be."

But when the 26-year-old University alumnus was thrown from his board after a long day of water sports, the vest wasn't enough to keep him afloat.

His friends and coworkers on the boat tried to retrieve Puckett, but he had slipped under the water, and they could not find him, recounted his brother Johnathan Puckett.

"He didn't come up," his brother said. "They spent a long time trying to find him."

Family and friends discovered that the life vest Adam Puckett was wearing at the time of his death was not U.S. Coast Guard approved, and while it boasted some floatation ability, it wasn't enough to keep him above water.

"I think people have a huge misconception about this type of vest," Jonathan Puckett said. "It's really scary how they don't have any warnings at all. I would really like people to know about that vest, all vests that aren't Coast Guard approved. If you're going to get something like that, at least know that you're risking your life every time you wakeboard or do any water sport."

The life jacket Adam Puckett wore was an impact vest, according to Sgt. Rachel Zechenelly, boating education coordinator for the enforcement division of the state Department of Wildlife and Fisheries. She said the vest, designed to reduce trauma when someone hits the water, is not guaranteed to offer floatation.

Kevin Kelly, recreational boating safety specialist for the Coast Guard, said an important safety step for people to take when boating is to know the types of jackets and when boarding a friend's boat to check and make sure they can locate the vests and that there is one they can wear.

The Coast Guard has five approved types of life jackets, each offering a different kind of protection, Zechenelly said. Approved vests should contain a tag that identifies its type and the amount of weight it can support, she said. State law requires that anyone participating in water sports like waterskiing or wakeboarding wear an approved life jacket.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragonlady8 wrote:
There you have it people. In evidence of a tragedy, the choice is still to be careless and stupid.


A SINGLE incident. Hundreds of thousands of pulls are taken every single summer wearing non-cga vests. How many people die? There is an assumption of risk, and to me, that risk is absolutely minuscule. I don't wear a cga vest and won't simply because of one tragedy.

I'm not going to stop driving just because hundreds of people who were doing everything right die every day in accidents they didn't cause. I'm not going to stop flying because planes crash every now and then. I'm not going to stop breathing because there are pollutants in the air that can give me cancer.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to wear a Non CGA vest for the first 8 years I rode until I took a few face plants where I really got the wind knocked out of me and came up choking on water. Now I only wear a CGA vest. For me its not so much about the flotation it provides but that with the additional flotation in the front, it offers a nice amount of padding on those face plants. Now when I face plant, it still sucks but not as much. I'll admit that the Non CGA vest look way cooler and are more comfortable but I'll never wear one again. The CGA vest have never restricted my movement or made it harder for me to land a trick. And as long as I can ride without thinking about my vest, I'm good.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't fix stupid.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

A reasonable person may also believe that a CGA approved vest will cause you to float on your back and have a certain level of bouyancy.

Why is it reasonable to expect that a cga vest will flip you over. I have never heard anyone make these claims or seen it advertised. how is foam and rubber gonna flip you when you have a board on your feet.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people have asked what exactly are we going to pursue against JP.

I'm not sure yet. We just had the funeral yesterday so we are still trying to figure stuff out. But let me tell you this. It isn't about money. I don't want money and I could care less. All I want is a greater awareness brought about on these vests. Some people disagree, but I still don't think that their warning is sufficient. It says it's not an approved vest on the website but the description also says that it has floatation. That is misleading. When it takes 3 emails for them to finally tell me that the vest will not float me, that tells me that they are afriad that they won't make a sell if they tell me how dangerous the vest really is.

Quote:
A SINGLE incident. Hundreds of thousands of pulls are taken every single summer wearing non-cga vests. How many people die? There is an assumption of risk, and to me, that risk is absolutely minuscule. I don't wear a cga vest and won't simply because of one tragedy.

I'm not going to stop driving just because hundreds of people who were doing everything right die every day in accidents they didn't cause. I'm not going to stop flying because planes crash every now and then. I'm not going to stop breathing because there are pollutants in the air that can give me cancer.


First, this isn't a single incident. The local Coast Guard told us that they lost 3 people because of these types of vests over the past summer. That is just in my area. That's not a very low number. The risk is not miniscule. You can't compare this to driving a car. If you want to make that comparison, try driving a car without a seatbelt on. Yeah, you could do this all your life and be fine, but if you do get in a wreck (or get knocked out wakeboarding), your chances of surviving are not looking good. This is why it scares me, because people don't understand how risky it is. I've taken some nasty falls and have blacked out once wakeboarding. If I had been wearing his vest, I might not be here today.

I encourage discussion about this topic. It doesn't hurt my feelings if you disagree. Talking about this is exactly what I want to be done.

And thank you all for the thoughts and prayers. I don't even know any of you, but it means so much to my family and I.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:
It says it's not an approved vest on the website but the description also says that it has floatation. That is misleading.


Nothing misleading there. Instead of blaming JP, I'd rather see you educate people on the facts.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt, the JP website says nothing about flotation.

Are you possibly referring to a retailer's site?

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess when I see "Molded Superlight 3-D EVA Air Foam" I figure that has to be the floatation, because foam floats. I know that's probably also for padding as well. Am I wrong about this?

Quote:
Nothing misleading there. Instead of blaming JP, I'd rather see you educate people on the facts.


How is it not misleading? I see Air Foam and I think "floatation."

You know, I wanna say that my brother might have known the full risk, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He should have looked into the floatation a little more, yeah. And like I have been saying - JP could do a better job, at least on their website and in the products description at retailers, with letting people know how risky their vests are.

And yeah I do want people to know the facts about these vests, which is why I started this thread.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you planning to take any actions against the people in the boat as well? Its seems to me they also could have done a better job.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt, sorry for your loss, that's a terrible thing to happen and I hope your family pulls together during a difficult time.

Regarding your 'potential actions' against JetPilot, with all due respect - I don't think you are going to accomplish much. Warning labels are already in place and people know the risks. The vest does provide "flotation" but also states specifically that it is NOT a life saving device. Just because it floats, doesn't mean it will hold you up.

This a complex issue, you can look and lay blame lots of places. Vest manufacturer, people in the boat, your brother for taking the risks etc... If you push this and actually get anywhere, the best I can see happening is stricter labelling policies. Do you really think this will deter people from buying these vestss? I'd say the majority are aware that they are NOT approved life vests already.

You'd probably be better off and potentially make the most difference by talking to a local government official about the dangers of riding without an approved vest and asking why you are allowed to do this? People need them on the boat, so why not when riding behind it... which seems like a potentially more dangerous situation. That might be the question to ask.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I wouldn't listen to anybody regarding a potential suit against JP other than a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction. You've got a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks on here who think they know something who can't wait to criticize you. Until they lose a brother or sister or friend because of a similar event, you can't expect these guys to simply flip flop on a company that they've probably spend hundreds of dollars buying swag from.

I personally have tons of JP stuff and i like what they've done for wakeboarding as a sport. However, if they are making a product that needs a better warning on, so be it. You can always bring a suit against them and settle, not for money, but for a guarantee that they will improve their warning.

I wish the best for you and your family. I completely understand what your doing here, just don't get discouraged because none of the people on here lost anything but you.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:
I guess when I see "Molded Superlight 3-D EVA Air Foam" I figure that has to be the floatation, because foam floats. I know that's probably also for padding as well. Am I wrong about this?


Any reference to materials or "floatation" without a USCGA approval is meaningless. Floatation really just means it won't sink, not that it will support weight. Your wakeboard will float, too, without you in it.

02lightning wrote:
You've got a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks on here who think they know something who can't wait to criticize you.


Actually, my condolences go out to Puck3tt and his family, but the warning WRITTEN ON THE VEST along with the appearance of the vest should have been sufficient. A USCGA vest is a life-saving device. A non-USCGA vest, well.........it isn't.


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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, well let me take my statement back about us pursuing something against JP. That's not 100%. We are still waiting on Autopsy results for the cause of death. And I agree with you - I don't think we would accomplish that much because they do have warning labels on the jacket and it says it isn't USCG approved. I guess our only argument could be is if that is enough. It's a tough argument to make, and there is some gray area in there. So I'll keep you updated on how this pans out. I mean if we don't pursue anything, I am going to start speaking with people at JP about this, and maybe taking steps to make the risk clearer in the product description.

I don't know if I'd take the route on trying to get these vests restricted by law. I just want people to know what they are getting into, so somebody doesn't make a mistake that costs him his life.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mourn your brother, and do what you need to do to educate others on the dangers of using a non-USCG vest if that makes you feel better, but Jet Pilot has no culpability regarding your brother’s decision.

The warning label on Jet Pilot's A-10 vest is rather lengthy, but here are the passages that are germane to this discussion:

“This garment cannot be considered a safety vest of any kind or life preserver and is not designed to protect the user from impact.

Injury or drowning could occur while wearing this garment”


Jet pilot has lawyers, too.


Last edited by Swass on Sep 28, 2007 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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ontrider
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning, cigarette packages say "Cigarettees Can Kill You" and yet people still smoke them. By all means he can do what he thinks is right, I just don't think going after more warning labels is necessarily the best way to accomplish his goal.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:
I guess our only argument could be is if that is enough. It's a tough argument to make, and there is some gray area in there.


It's pretty black and white to me. The state law says you need a USCGA vest to wakeboard. JP clearly advertises the A-10 as not being approved. It even says you can drown while wearing it.

Also, there are dozens of other companies making not approved vests. You haven't mentioned them at all, just JP. By attacking JP you are not accomplishing your goal of educating the boating public on the dangers of these vests.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning wrote:
You've got a bunch of arm chair quarterbacks on here who think they know something who can't wait to criticize you. Until they lose a brother or sister or friend because of a similar event, you can't expect these guys to simply flip flop on a company that they've probably spend hundreds of dollars buying swag from.


From my point of view, it has zero to do w/ Jet Pilot and everything to do w/ someone pointing fingers as soon as something goes wrong. I have a huge problem with that.

I'm still curious to know if Puck3tt plans to pursue any action against the people in the boat.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know if I'd take the route on trying to get these vests restricted by law.


They already are in many states, apparently yours is one of them.

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brew
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you should continue to educate and spread the word. I also think that if the JP website is misleading in anyway that a discussion could be had with them to reword or better phrase the product description. Also, if you bought it on-line then you should make sure that this isn't a problem with the online retailer and not JP.

However, I think that with proper education on your brothers part this may have not happened. I don't think it is the responsibility of the company to educate the public on what non-USCGA vests are. I think that is fairly common knowledge and anyone that chooses to wear one takes a personal risk, but I don't think that risk is JP's to bear. I think it is the individual's risk and I think that a lack of education on the matter is the individual's issue.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

02lightning, cigarette packages say "Cigarettees Can Kill You" and yet people still smoke them. By all means he can do what he thinks is right, I just don't think going after more warning labels is necessarily the best way to accomplish his goal.


The point is that you have to make the warning lables as clear and unambiguous as is necessary to get your point accross. Parents and others probably wouldn't be as likely to buy these vests if it said "Warning, this vest will not float you if you are knocked unconscious, and you cannot rely in any way on this vest to provide floation to prevent drowning."
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