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graeme Newbie
Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 4 City: qt
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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hi, i would like to add one thing into this interesting post.
it comes from my brief experiences with scuba/free diving.
what i am hoping is that everyone starts thinking about the vest they choose to wear
i have read everything here and dont think this has come up, i just want to ensure everyone is aware that just because a vest floats you at the surface does not mean it will bring you back up once you are below the surface.
water pressure effects floatation from just below the surface, its effect is the greatest at the top, so as you go under buoyancy decreases, even if you have full lungs - they get squashed by the pressure also
a wetsuit or vest gets thinner as you go deeper, so eventually you just go down......
while diving you have lead to counteract the buoyancy from a wetty at the surface, and a blow up vest to get you back from the depths.....maybe the vests should have a safety device that goes off once it is say 2m below the surface......bringing someone unconcious back up..... _________________ vlx |
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ontrider Ladies Man
Joined: 30 Jul 2003 Posts: 16491 City: Russia
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
while diving you have lead to counteract the buoyancy from a wetty at the surface, and a blow up vest to get you back from the depths.....maybe the vests should have a safety device that goes off once it is say 2m below the surface......bringing someone unconcious back up.....
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Maybe, but then you get into cost issues. How much more is a vest like that going to cost per unit vs a standard CGA? Am I willing to pay the extra money for the additional safety in case of a very unlikely event? How will someone know the difference between a CGA and the type of vest you recommended? People would need to be educated on that as well since it would look the same. Would the product be damaged by physically demanding athletic activiities or possibly malfunction? I actually see greater liability issues arising with a vest like that then with a standard CGA. |
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LakeIolaLuke Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 3064 City: Lake Iola/Orlando
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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you will never sink deep enough for that compression to have any effect with a CGA Vest. on. you're talking about like 60 ft + _________________
buckthis wrote: | And another reason wakeboarding is better than surfing, you die less, that means you have another day to wakeboard, which is more fun than surfing anyway. |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Another thing that hasn't been brought up is that Adult life vests aren't designed to rotate you over, like they are for infants. So if you get knocked out and are face down, better hope like hell you have a very good driver. The kind of driver that actually pays attention to the rider instead of all the other distractions in the boat. _________________ I hope the weather is calm as you sail up your heavenly stream |
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Dragonlady8 Black Widow
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 9198
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't the difference between adults vs infants vest, is the infant vest goes around the neck not just the torso?
Since we're on the topic of safety......what about those who choose to ride without a 3rd? _________________ [quote="Swass"] 8824, dude - I suck. You were right.[/quote]. |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dragonlady8 wrote: | Isn't the difference between adults vs infants vest, is the infant vest goes around the neck not just the torso?
Since we're on the topic of safety......what about those who choose to ride without a 3rd? |
DL they are actually designed to flip the infant/toddler right side up. The thingy behind their heads isn't just a good way to yank them out, it also flips them over.
We go all the time without a third, if we are the only ones on the water. At 5:00AM we are pretty much promised to be the only ones out. With a good driver and a good mirror we've never worried about it. |
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Dragonlady8 Black Widow
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 9198
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Posted: Sep 29, 2007 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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lcap wrote: |
We go all the time without a third, if we are the only ones on the water. At 5:00AM we are pretty much promised to be the only ones out. With a good driver and a good mirror we've never worried about it. |
I hope that your other person is capable of pulling you out of the water. Unfortunately I can't find the post from the other site.
Incident with a 2 rider boat where the rider was was knocked unconscious and the driver had a hard time pulling the rider out of the water.
He then had to drive AND worry about an unconscious rider.
This may need its own thread - sorry for the quasi hijack. |
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marcg Addict
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 944 City: Salt Lake City
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 6:53 am Post subject: |
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ontrider wrote:
Quote: | So you're going to listen to the marketing verbage on a website and take that information at face value, rather than an explicit warning on the actual product?
When you go to Boardstop to shop for a wakeboard it says:
"This board offers a freestyle shape that releases easily off the wake, while not sacrificing any of the pop in a three-stage rocker line. Jib ribs and ABS edges provide maximum durability on and off the rails."
So now that I've read that I can just go jib rails and hit the wake, and completely ignore the fact that right on the board it says "Wakeboarding can cause serious injury or death."
And now it's the online retailers fault for not having fine print on their website?
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Of course not but a wakeboard is not being marketed as a form of a life vest that is the difference.
The responsibility of course rests with the consumer to read the actual warning labels on the product when they receive it. I am hoping that at that point someone would realize once they receive the vest via their internet purchase: "oh this isn't going to save my @ss if I get knocked out, I better return it" instead of "wow, this looks little thin, ah screw it probably good enough to keep me afloat a little bit".
I will say that on one of those websites this is an example of a little more responsible verbage. Look at the O'neill Outlaw vest:
http://www.usoutdoorstore.com/outlet/oneill-outlaw-vest.html
In bold print it says at bottom:
WARNING: *THIS VEST IS FOR COMPETITION WATERSKIING AND WAKEBOARDING. IT IS NOT APPROVED BY THE U.S. COAST GUARD. WARNING: *THIS VEST IS FOR COMPETITION WATERSKIING AND WAKEBOARDING. IT IS NOT APPROVED BY THE U.S. COAST GUARD.
Unlike that JP vest, that bold disclaimer at the bottom would at least set off a few red flags/get someone thinking/researching before they hit that BUY button on the vest. Obviously I am referring mainlay to people out there who might not be aware of life vest differences (comp vs. USCG etc.)/someone new to the sport etc. etc. |
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pooser Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 4738
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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lcap, how is a life vest gonna flip you over if a board is attached to oyur feet? and the way infant life fests work is that they put all the floatation in the front of the vest, it would be really really uncomfortable to do that with a normal life vest. |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Dragonlady8,
You bring up an excellent point that I should know from experience. This summer a friend took all the little kids out. One of them had the board come off and hit him in the back of the head. Knocked him out and he had to have about 15 staples. My buddy was freaked out because it was his kid, he didn't have an adult to drive the boat, he needed to control the blood and he had to keep his son from moving.
My 10 year old drove the boat home. Not a good situation.
On the non CGA vest, I won't tow anyone 18 or under without one. A friend just bought the same JP for her son. Told her about this accident, she is putting it on Ebay.
Guess old dogs can learn new tricks. From what's happened to others on this site I no longer:
1. Idle the boat while boarders are getting ready.
2. Allow anyone 18 or under to wear non CGA vests.
3. Go without a third person. |
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david-d Guest
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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i bet puckett is busting a nut that she put it on ebay |
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brew Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 Posts: 2778 City: Jackson
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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You honestly couldn't be any bigger an idiot. Show some respect and don't post if you don't have anything to add to the discussion. |
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david-d Guest
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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haha im just joshin |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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david-d
I'll make certain she puts the initial bid cheap so you can buy it. |
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david-d Guest
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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i actually need a new one, mine blew off my boat for the 2nd time |
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andrewt Outlaw
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 140 City: lewisville
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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lcap, I bet that kid is pissed at you. I would be if some dude told my mom to sell my new vest.. |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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david-d,
Only way it would blow off is if it's dry. If it's dry you aren't using it. Consequently, no worries, throw your money away.
andrewt,
Nope; my boat, my rules. He can whine and cry but he'll be doing it on the dock where I can't see it or hear it. My non-cga is about 8-9 years old, it probably has as much flotation as the new CGA approved ones. The JP and others are just an accident waiting to happen.
Even though I still wear my non-cga for boarding, I always switch to a CGA approved one for Air Chairing, I tend to have much harder falls on it, including being knocked out a few times. Matter of fact the CGA approved one saved me once when the driver drove to close to the sandbar. My foil planted itself into the sand, I got tossed head first into the sand. Knocked me silly and the only thing that helped get me rotated to the surface was the life jacket. Pretty certain I got knocked out--started puking in the boat with a hell of a headache for the next few days. _________________ I hope the weather is calm as you sail up your heavenly stream |
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david-d Guest
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Posted: Sep 30, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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lcap, wrong... |
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Chattwake Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 4064 City: Chattanooga
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Posted: Oct 01, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
You have GOT to be kidding... Coming from Mr power-wedge or nothing himself.
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I still don't see the benefits of the non-power wedge!
hahahahaha |
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Swass Guest
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Posted: Oct 01, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | DL they are actually designed to flip the infant/toddler right side up. The thingy behind their heads isn't just a good way to yank them out, it also flips them over. |
Not quite true. Type II vests do not flip the wearer over, and that includes the vest you're talking about. It may flip the child over, but it is not specifically designed to do so. (I know you don't believe me; check USCG for yourself.)
P.S. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just think you might have a false sense of security about what that vest will do. |
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pooser Wakeboarder.com Freak
Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 4738
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Posted: Oct 01, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Swass, are you sure about that?? The info I have says it will flip most users over. Sure, it's not guaranteed but it is designed to offer the best chance of turning some one over. |
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Swass Guest
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Posted: Oct 01, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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The word "may" came from the USCG's description of an infant Type II vest. It does not say "most." The flap is designed to support the infant's neck when on their back - it is not there to flip the child over. The majority if the floatation is in the front of the vest. I suspect that's why the description says it "may" flip the wearer over. |
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lcap Ladies Man
Joined: 13 Nov 2003 Posts: 10973 City: Homeless
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Posted: Oct 01, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Swass
Rarely do I disagree with you.
I never tested the little dude/dudete vests to see if they'd actually flip the kids over. I did put them in Dad and Lad/Lass swimming classes when they were 6 months old and constantly watched them on the boats. When they were young, they would always be in an adults lap when the boat was underway. |
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TYLER** Outlaw
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 220 City: Baton Rouge LA
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Posted: Oct 02, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Puck3tt, I too am sorry for your loss, I knew your brother too. He video taped almost everygame I played of basball throughout my highschool carreer (I'm a senior now). And it scares the crap out of me because i ride on the Amite too and was out there inbetween the time of his accident and me finding out about it. And a couple of my friends who hardly have wakeboard expierience continue to think they don't need a vest when they ride. This trend has officially stopped. they don't wear a vest, they don't ride.....especially on the Amite.
But just to let you know you have my support in whatever you and your family decide to do and probly most of the wakeboarders around this area.
If you don't mind me asking, where was he on the river when it happened? |
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Puck3tt Newbie
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 05, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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TYLER** wrote: | Puck3tt, I too am sorry for your loss, I knew your brother too. He video taped almost everygame I played of basball throughout my highschool carreer (I'm a senior now). And it scares the crap out of me because i ride on the Amite too and was out there inbetween the time of his accident and me finding out about it. And a couple of my friends who hardly have wakeboard expierience continue to think they don't need a vest when they ride. This trend has officially stopped. they don't wear a vest, they don't ride.....especially on the Amite.
But just to let you know you have my support in whatever you and your family decide to do and probly most of the wakeboarders around this area.
If you don't mind me asking, where was he on the river when it happened? |
If you are driving the boat, it's not a good idea to let friends ride w/o a vest for several reasons:
1) You are liable if something happens
2) The coast guard will ride by and you will get ticketed
3) Do you really want to have to dive in after a friend is knocked out after a vest? And then explain to his/her family what happened?
If you're friends think they don't need a vest, then they are incorrect. You need a CGA vest if you want to survive a hard fall. The only reason that someone could not need a vest is if they want to risk their life. And yeah, some people do. That's their choice. Just make sure they know what they are choosing to do and don't let them do it on your boat.
The accident happened on the stretch a little bit past Fred's, where most skiers and wakeboarders go. |
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bonsaitree Outlaw
Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 198
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Posted: Oct 05, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Puck3tt wrote: |
If you are driving the boat, it's not a good idea to let friends ride w/o a vest for several reasons:
1) You are liable if something happens
2) The coast guard will ride by and you will get ticketed
3) Do you really want to have to dive in after a friend is knocked out after a vest? And then explain to his/her family what happened?
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1) Because it says on the wakeboard that the sport involves inherent risks you assume those risks the minute you get behind a boat. Nobody forced you to get in the water and nobody MADE you put the wakeboard on, so while most people think the person driving the boat is liable they really aren't. Yes if you drive the boat into a bank and cause the person to ride into the back of the boat its your fault, but the RIDER assumes responsibility for his/her decision to get behind the boat. Its not going to stand up in a court to say "I went out on the lake with him and got hurt behind his boat doing a sport that I new involved risk of injury. He should have to pay for my injuries cause it was his boat." (Granted all bets are off when the driver runs over the rider with the boat. )
2) I'm pretty sure here in Texas you can legally ride without a vest on. That said, any water patrol is going to stop you and confirm you have the necessary number of vests IN the boat and then recommend you wear a vest when riding.
3) that would suck, but its still their fault for not wearing a vest. They made the choice and paid the ultimate price.
For what its worth I still require my friends to wear a vest behind my boat. Period. |
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andrewt Outlaw
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 140 City: lewisville
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Posted: Oct 06, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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bonsaitree, yeah in Texas you don't have to wear a vest when riding |
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Puck3tt Newbie
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 06, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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bonsaitree wrote: | Puck3tt wrote: |
If you are driving the boat, it's not a good idea to let friends ride w/o a vest for several reasons:
1) You are liable if something happens
2) The coast guard will ride by and you will get ticketed
3) Do you really want to have to dive in after a friend is knocked out after a vest? And then explain to his/her family what happened?
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1) Because it says on the wakeboard that the sport involves inherent risks you assume those risks the minute you get behind a boat. Nobody forced you to get in the water and nobody MADE you put the wakeboard on, so while most people think the person driving the boat is liable they really aren't. Yes if you drive the boat into a bank and cause the person to ride into the back of the boat its your fault, but the RIDER assumes responsibility for his/her decision to get behind the boat. Its not going to stand up in a court to say "I went out on the lake with him and got hurt behind his boat doing a sport that I new involved risk of injury. He should have to pay for my injuries cause it was his boat." (Granted all bets are off when the driver runs over the rider with the boat. )
2) I'm pretty sure here in Texas you can legally ride without a vest on. That said, any water patrol is going to stop you and confirm you have the necessary number of vests IN the boat and then recommend you wear a vest when riding.
3) that would suck, but its still their fault for not wearing a vest. They made the choice and paid the ultimate price.
For what its worth I still require my friends to wear a vest behind my boat. Period. |
Heh, you like to play devil's advocate.
But on my first point, there still is a bit of liability. The coast guard told us that and so did our lawyer, if we wanted to pursue it against the owner of the boat. |
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bonsaitree Outlaw
Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 198
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Posted: Oct 06, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Puck3tt wrote: |
Heh, you like to play devil's advocate.
But on my first point, there still is a bit of liability. The coast guard told us that and so did our lawyer, if we wanted to pursue it against the owner of the boat. |
That I do sir. Its funny that you had a lawyer tell you there is a liability that lies with the boat owner. A buddy of mine had a lawyer tell him he wasn't liable. Damn lawyers!! |
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wakekat Newbie
Joined: 11 Aug 2005 Posts: 11 City: Central
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Posted: Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Puck....I am very sorry for your loss!
This accident is a terrible tragedy and there seems to have been many this summer. Those include brain injuries from something as simple as catching an edge, broken necks doing a raley, killer amoebas and even being run over and killed by your own tow boat! I am not a fan of litigation, especially against the boat owner/driver for allowing a person to wear their own equipment! I have generally worn a non-CGA approved vest with the mis-perception that it would keep me afloat! Since moving to Florida, "Ranger Rodney" has stalked my boat after catching me to insure my life vest is approved as it is illegal in Florida to wear a non-CGA vest. I have continued to wear it on early am runs (before lake patrol is out), but was doing so out of ignorance of the true risks. My wakeboard has a warning label that serious injury or death could result, but I continue to ride fully aware of those risks.
My thoughts are with you and your family in your time of need and I thank you for educating the community on the risks that we all probably SHOULD know, but might not have comprehended previously!
PS Please try to take some comfort in knowing that your brother died doing something he loved, regardless of whether or not he understood the risks associated with wearing a non-CGA vest! |
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Puck3tt Newbie
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 08, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Wakekat. Wakeboarding was definitely something my brother lived for and unfortunately died for. He loved his life and was happy, and for that I am thankful for.
We aren't going to pursue anything against the boat owner. I think it's up to the owner of the boat to decide how he/she wants to do things. I'm not saying people should make everyone in their boat wear CGA vests. That's what I will be doing, but that's just me. I don't want to ever have to carry that burden if something were to happen. Yeah it's the rider's personal choice to wear whatever vest he wants, or none at all, but if something were to happen, all the "what ifs" would to haunt me forever. |
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Tyler~Moore Wakeboarder.Commie
Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 1941 City: Knoxville
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Posted: Oct 09, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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I dont think the vest companys can do much more than this...
WARNING. This garmet is not a life jacket. read before use.
this garmet is not approved by the USCG , Canadian DOT or any other agency makin official approvals or flotation devices. No express or implied warrantiesmare made concerning its use or merchantability
This garmet cannot be considered a safety vest of any kind or a life perserver and is not designed to protect the user from impact. It should be worn only by experienced wakeboaders engaged in competetive wakeboarding tourneys where safety factors such as patrol boats and pickup boats are activly present and the wakeboader is under constant observation
This garment should not be worn by anyone who cannot swim the buoyancy factor and its distribution in the jacket is not sufficiant to float a conscious or unconcious person in a " face out of water position"
Injury or drowning could occur while wearing this garment. wear this garment at your own risk.
I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. And it makes me think twice about my a 10... _________________ www.Shadrack.com
www.JetPilot.com |
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Puck3tt Newbie
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 13, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Tyler~Moore wrote: | I dont think the vest companys can do much more than this...
WARNING. This garmet is not a life jacket. read before use.
this garmet is not approved by the USCG , Canadian DOT or any other agency makin official approvals or flotation devices. No express or implied warrantiesmare made concerning its use or merchantability
This garmet cannot be considered a safety vest of any kind or a life perserver and is not designed to protect the user from impact. It should be worn only by experienced wakeboaders engaged in competetive wakeboarding tourneys where safety factors such as patrol boats and pickup boats are activly present and the wakeboader is under constant observation
This garment should not be worn by anyone who cannot swim the buoyancy factor and its distribution in the jacket is not sufficiant to float a conscious or unconcious person in a " face out of water position"
Injury or drowning could occur while wearing this garment. wear this garment at your own risk.
I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. And it makes me think twice about my a 10... |
I think the warning on the vest is clear and good. I think they can do more though. I don't see why they can't put the same warning in the product description in the online stores. It seems like something that everyone would want to know before buying it. |
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Dragonlady8 Black Widow
Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 9198
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Posted: Oct 13, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Puck3tt wrote: |
I think the warning on the vest is clear and good. I think they can do more though. I don't see why they can't put the same warning in the product description in the online stores. It seems like something that everyone would want to know before buying it. |
Herein lies the problem.
As with anything else that is long written, people have a tendency to NOT take the time to get the entire information.
Instructions/warnings are last in thought and the first to be review after a failed attempt. _________________ [quote="Swass"] 8824, dude - I suck. You were right.[/quote]. |
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Puck3tt Newbie
Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 14, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dragonlady8 wrote: | Puck3tt wrote: |
I think the warning on the vest is clear and good. I think they can do more though. I don't see why they can't put the same warning in the product description in the online stores. It seems like something that everyone would want to know before buying it. |
Herein lies the problem.
As with anything else that is long written, people have a tendency to NOT take the time to get the entire information.
Instructions/warnings are last in thought and the first to be review after a failed attempt. |
Ok, maybe they don't need the exact same warning, but the risk of the vest could be summed up in short sentence - i.e. "Vest not designed to float you." If people choose not to read it on the website, well then I guess nothing can be done about that, but at least it is available. As of now, the only way of me knowing how risky these vests are (before purchasing) is to either email them (which has proved difficult to get accurate information) or to do my own research on the vest - second-hand information. It seems like the best info should come from the manufacturer itself, but that isn't happening. |
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