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The Truth Behind Comp Vests (Non USCGA vests)
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Chattwake
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I generally don't resort to personal attacks when discussing issues on WB. I let my emotions get the best of me on this one. I apologize if my contributions to this discussion were offensive to anyone in general, and 02lightening in particular.


Sorry I called you a retard. I still disagree with you.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning, you can try to play that game, but you will fail.

Wearing a non-cga vest in this case was illegal. Wearing a non-DOT approved helmet is, in most cases, illegal.

Same sh*t different transportation medium. The CG regulates PFDs. The DOT regulates helmets. In both this case and most likely in your hypothetical case, the activities were performed in violation of law.

There is no free pass when you are operating a motor vehicle. Like it or not, you are supposed to know the rules and not knowing them is not an excuse.

Maybe he should sue the boat driver?

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retard is bad, just don't ever even insinuate he or his arguments resemble "CB."

This country is choked with over litigation! Because of the idea that someone, other than the individual, is to blame has cost me a fortune! A fortune in money to cover the costs of litigation, costs of jury awards, costs in the loss of amusement!

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Did you expect that helmet to do that based solely upon that warning? Probably not.

But is it also not YOUR fault for not taking the extra precautions to wear the approved helmet?

What if he was wearing a CGA vest but riding on a whip at 55mph, smashing into the water... vest rips, foam comes out - no floatation. Who's fault is it then? I bet it's the vest manufacturers for not having their vest being able to sustain moderate impact right? Rolling Eyes
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Chattwake
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Same sh*t different transportation medium. The CG regulates PFDs. The DOT regulates helmets. In both this case and most likely in your hypothetical case, the activities were performed in violation of law.


OK........... So what? Even if the individual is found negligent per se, that doesn't prevent the application of comparative fault regarding the potential negligence of both parties.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What if he was wearing a CGA vest but riding on a whip at 55mph, smashing into the water... vest rips, foam comes out - no floatation. Who's fault is it then? I bet it's the vest manufacturers for not having their vest being able to sustain moderate impact right?


What?
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning, fair enough.

Doesn't eliminate the inherent risk assumed by the participant.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

King of the Tigers, you said, "But from a design standpoint, design is supposed to be self-explanatory." Says who? You? So if the design should be self-explanatory (the appearance is indicative of the function), why have warning labels at all? Why have the label on the hairdryer that says to stay away from the bathtub? After all, the hairdryer clearly does not look like a bathtub toy.

My Mini Cooper and H2 example was to make this point: both are passenger vehicles. Both serve the function of transportation. However, if you are going to be t-boned by a semi truck, the H2 probably will not look as worse for wear as the Mini Cooper, and drivers would probably choose the H2 over the mini cooper for safety if they were concerned about getting into a major accident.

Similiarly, if your main concern is flotation, you would probably pick a CGA vest.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lukewtwt, I think the point is that there is an obvious visual difference in a mini and a Hummer but not so much in a CGA and non-CGA vest.
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lukewtwt
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is there no obvious visual difference between a CGA and non-CGA vest? We are talking about an A-10 here, so compare it to any CGA vest on the market and tell me you can't tell an obvious difference just by looking at it. The A-10 is nearly paper-thin in many locations, what should that tell you? And while you are visually examining a non-CGA vest, how about reading the warning?

My point is, no one buys a comp vest for the flotation. You buy it because you think it looks cool or is more comfortable. If your concern is flotation, it's CGA all the way. Even from the visual standpoint.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's pretty black and white to me. The state law says you need a USCGA vest to wakeboard. JP clearly advertises the A-10 as not being approved. It even says you can drown while wearing it.


The law isn't relevant to what I'm talking about. Nowhere on the website does it say anything about drowning. I'm not talking about the label on the vest. I'm saying the gray area is whether they should put something on the online stores about the risks besides just "Not USCG Approved."

Quote:
Also, there are dozens of other companies making not approved vests. You haven't mentioned them at all, just JP. By attacking JP you are not accomplishing your goal of educating the boating public on the dangers of these vests.


I understand what you are saying. Let me just make it more clear. I'm taking this one step at a time. I am aware that other companies make these vests. Jet Pilot is just the first step for me because of the circumstances. It would require a lot of time that I don't have to focus on all the companies at once.

Quote:
I'm still curious to know if Puck3tt plans to pursue any action against the people in the boat.

No, we aren't going to do that. Yes, I know we could hold them accountable for negligence, but we let him wear that jacket on our boat several times, and we didn't know about how dangerous it was. I didn't even know it wasn't USCG approved. I guess you don't think or know about these things until something happens. So no, I don't hold them responsible.

Quote:
cigarette packages say "Cigarettees Can Kill You" and yet people still smoke them. By all means he can do what he thinks is right, I just don't think going after more warning labels is necessarily the best way to accomplish his goal.


Yes people still smoke them, but at least about everyone knows about the risks. My argument is that some or possibly many people don't understand the risk (from all the reviews I've read) when they are buying the jacket. Yes, the label on the vest sounds sufficient, but why shouldn't this sort of information be available when you are buying it? It just doesn't sound right.

What do you guys think about the emails I've received from JP? I mean they do tell me that the jacket is for experienced riders and not for safety, but at the same time they tell me that it will float me. That just doesn't sit right with me.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:

Quote:
I'm still curious to know if Puck3tt plans to pursue any action against the people in the boat.

No, we aren't going to do that. Yes, I know we could hold them accountable for negligence, but we let him wear that jacket on our boat several times, and we didn't know about how dangerous it was. I didn't even know it wasn't USCG approved. I guess you don't think or know about these things until something happens. So no, I don't hold them responsible.


For LETTING him wear it? WTF? Did he not make his own decisions?

That isn't even what I am talking about. Who was watching him ride? How on earth is a boat not able to get back to the spot where someone went down w/i 5 seconds if someone is watching and his head doesn't come up? I'm astonished that you want to blame a company that clearly labeled the vest for his death, but don't seem one bit upset about the negligence of the people in the boat.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:


Quote:
I'm still curious to know if Puck3tt plans to pursue any action against the people in the boat.

No, we aren't going to do that. Yes, I know we could hold them accountable for negligence, but we let him wear that jacket on our boat several times, and we didn't know about how dangerous it was. I didn't even know it wasn't USCG approved. I guess you don't think or know about these things until something happens. So no, I don't hold them responsible.


In your first post, you said
Quote:
I'm just an experienced wakeboarder like most of you, and I want you to know my story for the greater good.
My brother is a very experienced wakeboarder (10+ years).


First, how does an "experienced wakeboarder" not know, usually by sight, whether or not a vest is USCGA or not? In case the relative flimsiness of the vest didn't tip you off, it clearly says on JP's website, probably on the website that he bought it from, and on the vest.

Second, JP told you specifically, "If you are looking for something to float you, I would go with an approved vest for sure." Again, where is this misleading?
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
they should put something on the online stores about the risks besides just "Not USCG Approved."


Maybe you should be directing your attention to the online stores then?

JP has done their job by properly labeling the equipment. Perhaps your beef is with the stores that fail to note the warnings that are clearly and prominently displayed on the vest itself?

Even still, you need to accept the fact that your brother is primarily complicit in his own demise. He didn't read the warning label - and has paid an unfortunate price for it.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic comes up quite a bit. It is rare that tragegy like this shows up in our sport, but every time it does this is the knee jerk reaction. Would it matter if he was wearing a CGA vest? Would it have mattered if he wore a helmet? Every time you go out on the water, you take the risk of not coming back. Wakeboarding is dangerous.

CGA vests are flotation devices.
Comp vests are impact protection.

You asked why someone would wear a comp vest. They wear it to protect their ribs. They do not care if it floats. Its the same as riding with no vest, but if you stack hard, it may keep you from breaking ribs. By default, the padding used to protect your ribs has some floating charateristics.

Now, not all non-cga vests are equal. What makes a vest CGA approved? Companies pay to have the USCG test their vest. This costs money every time its tested. SO, when a company makes a CGA vest, they make sure it has plenty of float so it passes on the first go round. Other vests that they design for comfort may or may not pass, however, just because they werent submitted for approval does not mean they do not float or that they couldnt pass. All it means is that it wasnt submitted for approval.

Having said all that, fatalities that can be blamed on non-cga vests are sooooo rare, its hardly worth considering. Same for not wearing a helmet. If he was wearing a CGA vest, but wasnt wearing a helmet, you would be on here posting about the importance of the helmet.

Most importantly, these tragedies should remind us of how dangerous our sport it. It shouldnt make us run statisitics to make ourselves feel better about our participation. We all roll the dice when we ride, no matter what we are wearing.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is interesting how the Online Stores market these vests and the limited verbage as far as the danger of using these.

The product description seems to hint that there is some floatation capability. Granted looking at this thing in person and how paperthin it is I am not surprized that it would have ZERO potential to save you.

But I think many people who ride with these vests have the belief/misconception that they will have "just enough" flotation that if they get knocked out someone will still be able to find them....not that they will sink like a rock.

I assume the product descriptions etc. are cut and pasted right from the marketing department of the manufacturer.

Dictionary.com:
a·float:
floating or borne on the water; in a floating condition:
In a floating position or condition.

Take a look at this one for instance:

http://www.usoutdoorstore.com/outlet/jet-pilot-a10-molded-se-comp-vest.html

Description of Jet Pilot A-10 Molded S/E Comp Vest
Keep yourself afloat in style.

http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys/JetPilot-A-10-Molded-Competition-Wakeboard-Vest/2343233/product.html?IID=prod2343233

Product Description:

Keep your aquatic adventures afloat with this Competition Wakeboard Vest
Removable Rib Shield Protection means more than just a life vest
Allows for maximum comfort and flexibility available in water sports

http://www.wakeside.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=W&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=jetpilot_a_10_attack_vest_07&Category_Code=&DEN_CRVM_Offset=5

Description:
Jetpilot has created the best Wakeboard Comp Vest on the market with the A-10 and every other company has copied it. The Jetpilot A-10 gives riders the flexibility to stay unrestricted yet stay a float. The segmented padding acts as a layer for impact resistance and provides the rider with minimal bulk.


Last edited by marcg on Sep 28, 2007 6:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say you've been wakeboarding for 10 years, yet you didn't know that the A-10 was a NCGA vest?

I hate to be a dick, but this whole topic is a bunch of crap... stuff happens, mourn your brother and let it go.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we need to go back and argue the difference between Floating vs Afloating.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lukewtwt, says The Design of Everyday Things. Also says the members of my family who have taken design classes in college. It's a basic design principle. Go ask a design professor at a local college.

You only help my point with the hairdryer example. It has a warning label so that people won't use it while showering or in the bathtub. (which happened). However, this is not like the instance of the vests. If the hairdryer was designed to look like a rubber ducky, or reallistically, if it had waterproof features, but was still not something to use in the water, then there would be a huge problem in the design.

Once again, your Hummer to Mini Cooper example is just silly. Of course there's a difference between an A-10 and a USCGA vest but it is no-where near as dramatic as you Hummer example. There is less foam and there are foamless parts on the A-10 but there is also flotation foam, a buckle, and a zipper. It looks like a lifejacket. It is roughly the same size as USCG vest.

When I first tried out the A-10 I questioned the amount of foam but with my board underneath me it felt like it floated me fine. With so much of a USCG vest sticking out of the water I figured that they just had WAY too much foam. After a bad wreck I learned otherwise. Of course there were labels telling me it wasn't a flotation device but I couldn't demo one and even then it took a bad fall to realize it.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

King of the Tigers wrote:

It looks like a lifejacket. It is roughly the same size as USCG vest.

I guess my question for you would be then, if it's so similar, why didn't you just get the CGA vest Question
...Maybe it's not that similar, is it?

marcq wrote:

It is interesting how the Online Stores market these vests and the limited verbage as far as the danger of using these.
...
Product Description:

Keep your aquatic adventures afloat with this Competition Wakeboard Vest

So you're going to listen to the marketing verbage on a website and take that information at face value, rather than an explicit warning on the actual product?

When you go to Boardstop to shop for a wakeboard it says:
"This board offers a freestyle shape that releases easily off the wake, while not sacrificing any of the pop in a three-stage rocker line. Jib ribs and ABS edges provide maximum durability on and off the rails."

So now that I've read that I can just go jib rails and hit the wake, and completely ignore the fact that right on the board it says "Wakeboarding can cause serious injury or death."
And now it's the online retailers fault for not having fine print on their website?

Like Jason said, we all roll the dice when we go wakeboarding.

Own up to your mistakes, don't go looking for others to blame.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

02lightning wrote:
Not everyone has the same opinions and will think the same you, Swass. Ever thought about that? I'm not sure that your opinions equate to reasonableness...

You have GOT to be kidding... Coming from Mr power-wedge or nothing himself.

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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcg

If your going to cite websites to support your position, use one that supports your position. From your source:

Quote:
This vest receives a 5 for comfort and fit, but a 2 for buoyancy


. Granted, it is a “comp” vest, so if you are doing one pull, need maximum maneuverability and light weight, this is the vest for you.

If you are trying out new moves, dropping the handle or crashing a lot, get something that is more buoyant. I am 5’10” 190 with low body fat and I have to either lay flat on my back or tread water with one hand to keep my head above the surface.

Comfort with a cost. - 06/12/2007
by Patrick Kallerman
This is the most comfortable vest I have ever worn, it is amazing while riding. However in my opinion it doesn't float enough. Possibly its because I have very little body fat to start with but when in the water with a wakeboard I have to keep myself afloat by treading, or else I'll breathe in water.


What else can be done? Or should we all put on our bright orange Life Vests before entering the water?
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw, swass OWNZ this thread.. i agree with every viewpoint of his, and swass ftw!!!
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, I think that with proper education on your brothers part this may have not happened. I don't think it is the responsibility of the company to educate the public on what non-USCGA vests are. I think that is fairly common knowledge and anyone that chooses to wear one takes a personal risk, but I don't think that risk is JP's to bear. I think it is the individual's risk and I think that a lack of education on the matter is the individual's issue.


I don't think it's JP's or any company's responsiblity to educate what a non-USCGA vest is either. What I do want done, is for them to explain what their vest IS, as opposed to saying what it is NOT. I just don't understand why they can't put the same warnings that are on the jacket themselves (or at least a synopsis), in the product description on their online stores.

And please people, try to keep this discussion respectful and not let this turn into a bitchfest.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey... why don't you let me know how you feel about my opinion then??? this thread is a bunch of b.u.l.l.s.h.i.t.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the a-10 vest has enough warning on it as is... i own one. to say that there is not plain warning is to say the queen of england is in fact, not the queen of england.... just like swass said, the 'garment' clearly states that it will NOT prevent drowning... that's it, right there. done and done. it's over. all that needs to be said is that.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That isn't even what I am talking about. Who was watching him ride? How on earth is a boat not able to get back to the spot where someone went down w/i 5 seconds if someone is watching and his head doesn't come up? I'm astonished that you want to blame a company that clearly labeled the vest for his death, but don't seem one bit upset about the negligence of the people in the boat.


All I am going to say is that from what they said, he never came up. He went down into the water so they circled around like you normally do. I mean, they said he didn't fall that hard, so they just routinely circled around but when they noticed that he didn't come up, they sped to the spot and dove in. The river was probably 20 feet deep, so it's not as easy as it sounds to find a body in that much murky water.

Quote:
First, how does an "experienced wakeboarder" not know, usually by sight, whether or not a vest is USCGA or not? In case the relative flimsiness of the vest didn't tip you off, it clearly says on JP's website, probably on the website that he bought it from, and on the vest.


I've been wakeboarding for 10 years yes, and I've used the same lifevest for the majority of the time. I don't really keep up with that aspect of the sport because I liked my old Jobe lifevest so much and never needed a new one. I mean, my brother's looked thin, but I just figured it was some new technology or style.


Last edited by Puck3tt on Sep 28, 2007 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

david-d wrote:
the a-10 vest has enough warning on it as is... i own one. to say that there is not plain warning is to say the queen of england is in fact, not the queen of england.... just like swass said, the 'garment' clearly states that it will NOT prevent drowning... that's it, right there. done and done. it's over. all that needs to be said is that.


Please re-read my post. I'm not talking about the warning on the vest itself. I want something done about the product description on JP's online store and other retailers. If it was as clear as the label on the vest, I wouldn't even be talking about this.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcg wrote:
It is interesting how the Online Stores market these vests and the limited verbage as far as the danger of using these.

The product description seems to hint that there is some floatation capability. Granted looking at this thing in person and how paperthin it is I am not surprized that it would have ZERO potential to save you.

But I think many people who ride with these vests have the belief/misconception that they will have "just enough" flotation that if they get knocked out someone will still be able to find them....not that they will sink like a rock.

I assume the product descriptions etc. are cut and pasted right from the marketing department of the manufacturer.

Dictionary.com:
a·float:
floating or borne on the water; in a floating condition:
In a floating position or condition.

Take a look at this one for instance:

http://www.usoutdoorstore.com/outlet/jet-pilot-a10-molded-se-comp-vest.html

Description of Jet Pilot A-10 Molded S/E Comp Vest
Keep yourself afloat in style.

http://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toys/JetPilot-A-10-Molded-Competition-Wakeboard-Vest/2343233/product.html?IID=prod2343233

Product Description:

Keep your aquatic adventures afloat with this Competition Wakeboard Vest
Removable Rib Shield Protection means more than just a life vest
Allows for maximum comfort and flexibility available in water sports

http://www.wakeside.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=W&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=jetpilot_a_10_attack_vest_07&Category_Code=&DEN_CRVM_Offset=5

Description:
Jetpilot has created the best Wakeboard Comp Vest on the market with the A-10 and every other company has copied it. The Jetpilot A-10 gives riders the flexibility to stay unrestricted yet stay a float. The segmented padding acts as a layer for impact resistance and provides the rider with minimal bulk.


Good Find.
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PostPosted: Sep 28, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontrider, Wow! You really made me feel dumb by taking what I said out of context to prove your point. Where did you learn this advanced technique? Laughing You ignored what I said before and after the quotation you used.
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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Puck3tt wrote:
david-d wrote:
the a-10 vest has enough warning on it as is... i own one. to say that there is not plain warning is to say the queen of england is in fact, not the queen of england.... just like swass said, the 'garment' clearly states that it will NOT prevent drowning... that's it, right there. done and done. it's over. all that needs to be said is that.


Please re-read my post. I'm not talking about the warning on the vest itself. I want something done about the product description on JP's online store and other retailers. If it was as clear as the label on the vest, I wouldn't even be talking about this.


What the Bubb Rubb does it matter? As long as the description is on the vest itself, any online retailer, as well as JetPilot itself, can "market" the product in any way they see fit... it doesn't matter
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Dragonlady8
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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

david-d, you need to calm down. He's provoking conversation and thought process about a noncga vs cga vest. No need to attack. You've made your point.

This thread shows a multitude of thought processes. Everyone needs to understand that this is the way people think and you learn how to formulate a discussion to their level of understanding by not taking a stab at intelligence.

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[quote="Swass"] 8824, dude - I suck. You were right.[/quote].
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ontrider
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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

King of the Tigers, who said I'm trying to make you feel stupid? If you feel that way though, maybe there's a problem with your thought process already.

King of the Tigers wrote:

If I have a bunch of things that look like they serve a certain purpose and have for years served that purpose, then to make something that looks the same, but has a different purpose, even with words telling you the new purpose, it is bad design.

Honestly... how much variation in design can their be in a life vest? You say it's bad design because it's made to look like a CGA vest??? What else is it going to look like, and how would you design it yourself to make it different and obvious?

It's like saying a long sleeve t-shirt looks just like a sweater and that I didn't realize the sweater would've kept me warmer. Visually, I would be fairly confident in making the assumption that a thicker vest will float me more. I mean you're talking paper-thin vs. puffy foam.

I have an Oneill Vapor which is one of the thicker non-USCGA vests - thicker than the JP obviously, but I can still distinctly see a visual difference when I compare it to one of their CGA vests like "the law".

So I've addressed your concern now and hopefully you don't feel too stupid.
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King of the Tigers
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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontrider, I figured that Laughing would show the sarcasm in my "making me feel stupid post."

Just in case it's not clear now: you didn't make me feel stupid.
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ontrider
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PostPosted: Sep 29, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't you down with the double-arrows? Arrow Arrow Laughing
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