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nmballa
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: New debate... Reply with quote

Alright... The two below mentioned women have, since their flight, become very productive members of society. Is the judicial system intended to serve punishment or rehabilitation? Both these women obviously have been rehabilitated do they still deserve prison sentences? Or by letting them off the hook, do we send a wrong messege to potential law breakers? Thoughts...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/17067346/detail.html

DETROIT -- U.S. Marshals arrested a local mother in Camden, Tenn., after she escaped from a Michigan prison nearly 33 years ago.

Rebecca Hatcher, 57, jumped the fence in 1975 and escaped from Scott Correctional Facility in Plymouth, just eight months after she was sentenced to serve one to 15 years in prison for assault with intent to commit unarmed robbery.

Authorities said Hatcher made a new life for herself in Camden, just outside of Jackson. She got married, had a child and opened up her own beauty salon.

U.S. Marshals, with the help of the Detroit Fugitive Apprehension Team, DEFAT tracked down Hatcher.

U.S. Marshals said a tattoo of a butterfly on her shoulder helped them identify her and they arrested her without incident.

Hatcher pleaded with them when they showed up to her house and begged them not to take her back to jail, according to U.S. Marshals. She had never had another run-in with the law after.

"It's not so much how she's living, it’s the fact that she had to pay a penalty and she didn't do it and U.S. Marshals will catch up to you," said U.S. Marshal Jody Nidiffer.

Hatcher is in a Tennessee prison and will be brought back to Michigan soon to stand trial.

She could possibly have to serve her original sentence of one to 15 years and may face additional charges for escaping from prison.

A Wayne County Prosecutor decided last week to charge a California mother, who also escaped from the same prison 32 years ago.

The 53-year-old mother of three was arrested in April outside her home in an affluent area of San Diego.

If convicted, Susan Lefevre could face up to five more years in prison. She's already back in Michigan serving at least 5 1/2 years for her original conviction of selling heroin.

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see our US marshals are spending their time and our tax money in the most productive way possible and keeping us all safe.


Why would you take a productive member of society who is contributing and living iwthin the law and put them in jail for something they did many years ago?

Glad to see out justice system has so much free time and extra money that they can spend it mounting a prosecution against these women.

You know, cops let each other go for things like drunk driving and minor crimes all the time. So the argument that the law is applied without bias all the time is nonsense. If ever the law should be bent, or law enforcement should look the other way, it's in these cases, not when some cop gets busted driving drunk and his buddies look the other way.

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htownbdr
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I take it the message you want to send is that it's ok to break out of prison as long as you become a productive member of society?
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Dragonlady8
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone in prison has the potential of being a productive member of society........






if they wanted to.

BUT the fact remains that she escaped, had to maintain a low profile and keep her nose clean so that she wouldn't be caught & taken back to prison.

So I'm in the same thought as htownbdr

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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're making the assumption that the only reason the were "good" was to avoid jail. I don't buy that. You don't start a business if you want to keep a low profile. If having a jail sentence hanging over you makes criminals behave so well, then the concept of suspended sentencing would work better than it does.

What's the point of jailing them again? Sending a message? What kind of nonsense is that? I'm pretty sure the bars and barbed wire and armed guards send the message that you shouldn't try to escape louder than letting a couple of women who have contributed to socitey and not broken laws in 30 years.

In what way is sending them to jail going to make society, or them, better? IMO, this is the epitome of self-rightious stupidity.

And to be honest with you, If EVERY prisoner in jail today escaped tomorrow and led a clean, productive, honest life and contributed to society, why exactly would that be a bad thing?

Is it that you want to get "even" and somehow make a person "pay?"

Why don't we sentence them to community service already served, and a 15 year suspended sentence. That way the people who think that they only behaved to avoid jail can be happy, and the people who think, for whatever petty reason, that they should have served some time can be able to technicaly say that they served time and feel better about the justice system.

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htownbdr
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What's the point of jailing them again?


See my first post.

Quote:

Sending a message? What kind of nonsense is that?


See above.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure the bars and barbed wire and armed guards send the message that you shouldn't try to escape louder than letting a couple of women who have contributed to socitey and not broken laws in 30 years.


Evidently not. They escaped.

Quote:

In what way is sending them to jail going to make society, or them, better?


See origianl post.

Quote:

IMO, this is the epitome of self-rightious stupidity.


Now, that's just out of left field.

Quote:

And to be honest with you, If EVERY prisoner in jail today escaped tomorrow and led a clean, productive, honest life and contributed to society, why exactly would that be a bad thing?


That would be great. But, statistics show otherwise. And, it would NEVER happen. All that would happen is everyone would break out with the story of "Oh, I was just leaving to go be a productive member of society...you know, like those two old ladys".


Quote:

Is it that you want to get "even" and somehow make a person "pay?"


No, I don't want others to follow this example trying to get a pardon or some lesser sentance.

Quote:

Why don't we sentence them to community service already served, and a 15 year suspended sentence. That way the people who think that they only behaved to avoid jail can be happy, and the people who think, for whatever petty reason, that they should have served some time can be able to technicaly say that they served time and feel better about the justice system.


I think you get the point.

On this one, I really think you are taking that side just because you feel like arguing.
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No criminal is going to take the example of two people who escaped and became model citizens as a "get out of jail free card."

And you know what? If someone escapes and leads a productive life and is an assett for society, then so what? the point is to turn criminals into model citiens. Jail so rarely does that. If someone escapes and then is a model citizen, and it's not for a murder or child molestation, what's the big deal? Isn't the point to make it so people don't reoffend? If they go 30 years without reoffending, isn't the objective met?

ALL criminals try to get a pardon and/or a lighter sentence. They always have, they always will. There is no way a convict is sitting in jail saying "you know what, I think I deserve all this jail time and I'm just going to do it....OH WAIT! What's this in the paper? Two old women escaped from jail and lead good lives and they don't have to go back? NOW THAT'S IT! This changes my mind completely! Now I'm going to file those appeals after all!"

I'm not taking this position just to argue. I'm taking it because it is pointless to send someone back to jail who has been an assett to society for over 30 years because of something they did three decades ago. This will NOT make society any safer or better, and it will not help these women "rehabilitate" themselves, they are already rehabilitated.

Sentence them to 15 years suspended sentence for the escape and time and community service served for the original crimes. (the statute of limitations would have run out anyway, had they not been sentenced in the 1970's anyway).

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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Aug 03, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so the question is...Is it jail time meant as a punishment or rehabilitation time?


I agree with cb, this woman hasn't done anything wrong in 30 years and we're wasting our time=money on her? What a waste! I'm not saying that everyone should escape jail and skip out on their sentence, but in this instance the results are ridiculous.

You can't cover the circumstances with a blanket decision, it must be a case by case basis, as ALL cases should be.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no debate.

initial crime + escape = 2 ...... one more is life.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why?
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it jail time meant as a punishment or rehabilitation time?


Why does it have to be one or the other? And, why only those two. I think it is partially a deterrent, partially a punishment and partially for rehabilitation. By the way, I truly believe a lot of people cannot be rehabilitated by our prison system. So, if that is the main reason for prison (which I don't believe) then you might as well not have prison at all.
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jail is obviously a deterrent. It did its job. It deterred these women from ever doing anything illegal again.

If you jail them now, 30 years later, what good is that going to do?

I agree that jail won't rehabilatat most people, especially the system we have now.

So then why do you want to send two rehabillated people back to jail for something they did 30 years ago? Seriously, what's the reasoning for this?

Aren't there actual criminals who are comitting heinous crimes today that we could be tracking down? Isn't our prison system horribly overcrowded as it is? Do we agree that prison often just hardens a criminal and teaches them how to comitt more crimes?

There is no serious rehabilitation in prison, and there isn't serious punishment either. It's neighther here nor there and in a state of dangerous limbo that isn't accomplishing anything.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigger fish to fry, let them go. Assault??? BFD.

Shawshank Redemption.

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joebananas
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When DEFAT tracked down the women they obviously observed her and did their homework to realise who she was and what she was about. How come common sense didn't come into play? Looking at the producive life she was leading as a contributing member of society I would have walked away. No one need to know that she was found no articles need be written, she would have stayed forgotten.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really couldn't care less if these two old lady's don't do any more time. If it didn't have an impact on anything else, I would be fine if they were to walk free.

However, I am concerened with the bigger picture and the message it sends. Letting them go free states the message of "break out of prison and be a productive member of society and you won't be punished" loud and clearly.

Which, if people were to actually do this, that would be fine too. But, in reality, it won't happen. So, by allowing this, you are giving others the opportunity to argue that these people got away with it so they should too.

Don't you work for Westlaw or Lexis? You know how Stare Decisis works. Same principle.
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Neognosis
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1- do you HONESTLY think that this is going to cause more prisoners to try to escape from prison? Really? That's ridiculous.

2- If someone breaks out of prison and actually lives a productive life, earns a clean living, pays sales tax, hell, that's better than paying 40K a year to house them.

So even though the idea that this is going to make convicts who were not planning on trying to escape now try to excape is ridiculous, if they aren't committing crimes, who cares?

Argue what? That because two people escaped and didn't do any crimes for 30 years, that they should be allowed to escape too?

How many criminals do you think escape and live for 30 years without comitting any crimes? I'll wager the number is overwhelmingly tiny. Like maybe these two and one or two other convicts in the last 100 years.

the message that it will send, if we put these women back in jail, is that we live in a cold, hard society that doesn't care about what you do, only the technicality of the law. That's it.

I know Stare Decisis. Respect the decision. Our legal system is based on precedent. I'll wager there is virtually zero precedent for people who escaped prison and led examplary lives for 30 years, and then got caught. I can recall only one other case like this in the last 20 years.

If you are concerned about it setting precedent, sentence them to 15 years supended sentence. This solves everything: they get punished with a suspended sentence, and they have further incentive to stay honest.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prison is all about deterrence and punishment. There is very little rehabilitation value in jail time and, although I don't have them in front of me, I'm sure that most people who do jail time at one point or another are repeat offenders.

Jail is a deterrent, but obviously not a very good one. It is even less of a deterrent if we allow escapees to go unpunished so long as they can demonstrate some shred of their leading a "productive life" once they are out. Can you imagine what type of door that would open? Who would determine what "productive life" even means? Are you going to ask the overworked court and/or law enforcement system to take this on, on a case-by-case basis? Good luck with that. This would destroy ANY deterrent effect of having prisons in the first place (if there is even any deterrent effect left).

Look at how many people do what they are going to do, hide the money they may make by profiting from their crimes, and then cut a deal to only serve a few years and then get back at it again once they are released. The only true deterrent to crime is one's own moral principles. This is the main reason why I oppose capital punishment: a person is going to determine right or wrong based on their own morals. They don't choose to do or not do something because they might go to jail or be executed. They choose based on what they think is right for them at that time.

Regardless, leaving these people alone is a joke and it would destroy the tiny bit of deterrence that jail does provide. If you're going to let them go, you might as well abolish jail.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, people who escaped from jail would do their absolute best to never comitt a cime again. THE HORROR!

The overwhelming majority of convicts are unable to escape anyway. You would have to be a moron to not realize that these are a special case. It would be far easier to serve 2 or 3 years and then get out then escape and try to hide for 30 years.

To compare letting them go with abolishing jail is absolutely ridiculous.
In my mind, these are two sucess stories. But you want to potentially ruin the success because you think that it's going to make more criminals try to escape and run off to open their own businesses and be assets to society? That's just silly.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be mad at the US Marshalls for picking them up is silly. They were to serve jail time. They broke the law and escaped. The Mashalls had to arrest them according to the law. It is now up to the judges to sentence them.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joebananas wrote:
Looking at the producive life she was leading as a contributing member of society I would have walked away. No one need to know that she was found no articles need be written, she would have stayed forgotten.


I wish this would have happened.

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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone is mad at the marshals...more mad at the idea that you can go into a post office and see a list of the 10 most wanted dangerous fugitives...yet resources were spent on this?
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if someone killed your Mom, was sentenced to 20 years in jail, then escaped. Then you found out 20 years later that the person was found. While out of jail, they had not committed a crime (that anyone was aware of), owned a house, had kids, was running their own business, and making good money. Would you want them to go back to jail?

This is a huge "what-if" question, and is a far worse example than a 15-year sentence for assault (overkill imho). But, it does bring up a good point. We have rules and consequences in our society. If you break those rules then you should pay the penalty.
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PostPosted: Aug 04, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These women didn't kill anyone.

Murder is a little bit different.

And honestly, I to answer your question, I would want to meet them and see what they were like. If they were genuinely sorry and had really changed, I would like to think that I would be able to forgive them. I am a christian, after all.

Are you saying that if you break a rule, you should pay the penalty, even when it's conterproductive to what the rule is there for in the first place? That's just ridiculous. Over an assault 30 years ago, let's remove an asset to the society and throw her in jail and make it so that she has a much harder time making a living when she does get out.

In other words, she's not a criminal any longer, but let's see if we can turn her back into one.

Maybe a creative judge will sentence her to a week in jail and everyone can forget about this whole stupid issue.

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