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water board coaching?!?!?

 
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wakeskate_revolution
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 5:33 am    Post subject: water board coaching?!?!? Reply with quote

What is going on with this coaching thing? Wakeboarding is full of coaches and on water trainers. It goes to show people are so worried about being good they are willing to fork over 1200 dollars. Seems to me that people are not enjoying the sport unless they get good within a matter of days. Now i see wakeskating headed this direction, and it personaly makes me shake my head. 1200 dollars would provide you with a lot of gas. But I'm sure you are thinking, "well they have a nice boat". However, wakeskating is not about owning the best boat and this has been proved by people ripping behind outboards and poon-toons. But everyone already (should) know this. I dunno its just my opinion but i think wakeskating should not be coached. We shouldn't have to pay money to "the man" to push the sport....more on this later, i need to go to work for "the man" at walmart.
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why is it bad that people want to get better? people pay money for a good coach to help them improve on the sport, whats wrong with that??? if someone has the money, and wants to spend it on that, then they can if they want to, why do you have a problem with people wanting to improve in something they enjoy?
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with W.R. Why buy your style? To me, "board sports" are actually different artforms, so I don't subscribe to the idea of someone telling me how to do something when it should be an individual thing. I've said it before, but I don't rag on people because they do it, but I don't agree with it either.

Anyway, whether it's skateboarding or wakeskating, it's all about individuality and creativity. And if you're a free thinker you can become a pioneer for a lot of other people (much like byerly). Granted, chet helped darin with the raley, but byerly has invented a huge number of tricks without a coach. For some reason, I don't see the same spirit in wakeboarding anymore...

For me, There is a greater feeling of satisfaction when I can figure out a trick on my own by watching videos and trying to get to know my style of riding so I can figure out what I'm doing wrong. To me, coaches take the thinking out of the riding. Granted, some people need a little help here and there, but there are riders that have full time coaches and that makes me sick.

Lastly, to me, it's about riding with your friends, riding with style, and challenging everyone to step it up (much like seaman and daniel lovette). I respect that attitude more than anything. I actually want to throw in there that full time coaching turns it into a rich kid's game. Not everyone has a 50,000 boat and has the money to pay mike ferraro to teach them a kickflip (or whatever)-in fact, I totally respect the kid on the lake that wants to ride behind a seadoo because that's all you have. It's better than sitting on the couch and wishing. I could go on, but I'm going to zip it up right here. :Late:

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well put electricsnow.
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, sweet, this is fun.
Coaches don't teach style. You learn style by making it feel like you want it to. Coaches teach you fundamentals. That's all they can teach. You don't get style directly from someone else, you get it from how you want everything to feel. Kovak had style, his own, which might have been from a background that wasn't "cool", but he had style. People, like Derrick, the "grab" policeman, think that style is defined, that someone can have good or bad style. You guys hit it on the head, its individual. So really its not about style, its about learning fundamentals, when you get help. Glad you brought up my name electricsnow, cause right now, I am a full time wakeboard coach. People get lost, get bad habits, and that's what we are here for. The coaches that focus on the pros, they are more motivators than anything. Take Sean for example. I try to help him when I see something is wrong. He is doing tricks I would never think of doing, but I try to help him, cause wakeboarding has basic fundamentals for most all tricks, and I'm used to analyzing things. I tell him what I see, and he figures it out. I push him to do different things, and he figures how he wants them to feel. Daniel instructed me, and I instructed him, when we were/are learning things, so are we what you guys don't like? Some people don't have friends that push them, or are better than them, that's where coaching might help. But it has nothing to do with style. Wakeskating is too young to have people coach them, and I think, like skating, there is pride in wanting to learn everything on your own, or with your friends, and that's how I think wakeskating should be for me, cause you can do things so differently. But people get instruction for any sport, even skating. There is nothing wrong with it, it just doesn't make you a better rider. The people that are mistaken are the ones who think the person with the most tricks is the best.

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to make paragraphs, like electricsnow.
I talk to much.
She isn't a girl.
Kovak makes a wakeskate instructional book, I'll buy 13 of them!!!

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that going to a camp (like TWC) is totally cool.

But, I think that having a "coach" is something totally different. When I thhink of having a coach, I think of Dallas Friday and Mike Ferraro.
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think wakeskating is pointless. Being a Kovak fan, i often find myself wondering, how will anyone boner out the tricks? seaman is a closet kovak fan and it is based 100% on the boner style. in fact i heard him say, and i quote "aint no style like a boner style".
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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have some interesting comments seaman. I do agree with some, but not on all. I guess before I proceed, you all might want to maybe go to the bathroom, pick up a cold drink, and maybe a snack because this will be a long one.

First, I do agree that style is objective. Everyone has it, some just possess characteristics that make them more enjoyable to watch than others. I have heard from a lot of pros that style is everything (pros from skating, snowboarding, biking). As it turns out, style can make or break you. And as far as the bad habits that people pick up, some can actually work to their advantage. For instance, watson bends over at the waist when he goes in for a toeside cut. Yeah, this isn't proper, but he still makes up for it in other ways (like making sure he is still leaning against the rope) and it's a little idyosyncracy(sp) that makes his riding unique. With that said, I don't think every little problem needs to be corrected, but I'm just stubborn. Those corrections could make someone a better rider.

Second, you are right, there are riders in every sport that might get help once in awhile, Whether they go to hcsc or that camp out east for skating and biking (I can't remember it right now). Despite all of the things you said, I still don't believe in fulltime, paid coaching. To me, the spirit is different when you're riding with your friends and pushing each other, as opposed to someone paying 200.00 a day to learn a trick. WHy is that trick worth 200.00 (or any series of tricks, for that matter)? Is it about the accomplishment, or is it for claiming and possibly winning money down the road. I guess that is for the individual to decide. As I have said before, I don't dislike the people that need the coaching (or the coaches), I just dislike the act and it will NEVER be for me. I mean, there were pioneers from every sport that figured out these tricks for us, and now all of a sudden nobody wants to go through that creative process?

ONe thing I don't get is how a rider needs almost every trick taught to them. You said that every trick has their basic fundamentals-I interpret that as sort of learning that stuff at the beginning, or else it woudn't be basic. WIth that in mind, if the fundamentals are basic, why does an advanced rider need a trick spelled out for them? I'm not trying to be sassy, that's just how I see it (and a certain editor from a mag I spoke to awhile back).

For me personally, my inspiration is the late Jeff Anderson. He had said something in his expn.com interview that for me was right on. He talked about how snowboarding is an artform and that how he is all about creativity and doing something, somewhere that nobody has ever done before. (it could be something as simple as a carve. The point was that the snow is his canvass and is there for him to do as he feels fit.) He wasn't all about working on one trick on a jump over and over again because to him, that isn't snowboarding and it's not creative. With that in mind, I have crossed that mentality over to my riding. I believe in being creative and doing what you want, where and whenever you want. Last summer I spoke to this 10 year old who went to wwc and there was this coach that was like, "you can't get in the boat until you try this trick." How is that fun? I don't know, that just doesn't jive with me and quite frankly, that is the kind of help that is going to make a kid quit riding. And with paid coaching, you're there to warm up, and then work on a trick or two for the rest of your time, as opposed to free riding and feeling things out on your own by trial and error. Again, that's just what I believe and I don't expect everyone to agree.

Anyway, I think that's enough. I can say that I am not the only one that feels this way, because I have heard from another pro (think hyperlite) that feels the same way. I would like to add that everyone on here has a different opinion and I'm just here defending mine. Obviously there are two sides to a fence and I'm on one, you know? I hope that all made sense to all'a yalls.

Actually, I do have one thing to add. You (seaman) thought that wakeskating is young and that there is pride in what you learn with your friends or alone. WHy did that have to die with wakeboarding? In my opinion, doing things differently can bring a different style and with so much coaching in wakeboarding, isn't that being lost? My brother said that I'm a pureist and I shouldn't let that get in the way of my goals (because i had a problem with a kid who's dad sent him to three different camps to learn tricks for the pro tour). Perhaps that's a downfall....

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Some just possess characteristics that make them more enjoyable to watch than others" -- that is style, and that's not grabbing between the feet, or spinning, its the rider enjoying what they are doing. A big smile on the face is the best style, I don't care whether its byerly or a first timer. Sounds stupid, but watch some "Stylish" riders scream and yell and act ridiculous, and their expression with tricks loses value to me. Style is everything. Well, style is nothing more than control, control over yourself, and your surroundings.

"And as far as the bad habits that people pick up, some can actually work to their advantage" -- you read too much into that. I meant, flatting out at the wake, the simple things in wakeboarding. But this brings me to something. I don't teach many inverts, most are beginners, struggling to find an edge, or figuring out pop. I will never teach someone a TS 9. You are right, you get to a certain level, you should know the basics, and do it on your own.

I think you guys have a misconception with camps also. Have you been to a camp? I'm sure they are all different, but it should be-people come out, have a good time, and everyone pushes eachother, just like if I'm in the boat with friends, that's a part of it. Camps should be to get ideas, go home and do it, then come back once you have it, for other ideas, not necessarily frequently. When people come out with me, I give them ideas for a bunch of things, so they can go back and try what they want, and have some idea on them. I wish someone gave me some ideas about how to do a backroll when I was learning, cause it took me two years, and all I needed to do was edge through the wake. Some people push hard on their own, and those are the ones that usually can teach. I wasn't like that with boarding, Sean taught himself everything. People lead, people follow. But neither are wrong. Its just where you want to be

"He wasn't all about working on one trick on a jump over and over again because to him, that isn't snowboarding and it's not creative" Daniel did....I thank him for it...well I thank myself for driving his punk ass, everyone should thank me!!!

Honestly, I think you guys aren't open-minded enough towards camps, you have false ideas. You have mixed up the pros being coached, with some bad experiences you've heard of, and then the rest. The pros being coached thing is so funny its a joke. I wont argue on that one.

"You (seaman) thought that wakeskating is young and that there is pride in what you learn with your friends or alone. Why did that have to die with wakeboarding?"
It didn't, Sean is living proof. See the Lost website in the next couple of weeks.

SEAMAN

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my take. It will undoubtably make no sense...

You can tell someone how to mix paint, how to hold a brush, tell them about art theory.

But one you tell them how to paint their own picture, it has gone too far...

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PostPosted: May 19, 2003 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah on another, less cryptic, note.

I went around the East coast of Australia with a travelling coaching tour this year. I support this type of coaching a lot.

Pay $20 max, get 20 minutes behind a boat that most people don't have access to, and get told the basics by some of the top Pro's in Australia.

The coaching pretty much entailed just talking about handle height, edging into the wake, basic stuff like that. It helps people out there who are new to the sport get those basics down and progress from there. People who didn't have boards (ie. people who had never tried wakeboarding) could choose any one from the HL range too.

If people were more advanced, we'd say have a little ride, show us what you're trying to do and we'll tell you if there is anything we can do to help you stomp it.

Very different from having Coaches or paying $200 to land tricks. More like spreading the wakeboarding word around the country, and letting people have a good time.

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PostPosted: May 20, 2003 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seaman, you sound like you are doing a good thing. I don't know if I made it clear, but the coaching that disappoints me is the pro level, full time coaching. If anyone needs help, it's definitely beginners. When I started wakeboarding, I was one of the only kids at school that rode and I am still the only wakeboarder on my lake. It took me many summers and mulling over instructional videos to learn how to pop correctly (among other things). I'm proud that I figured it out, but it did take a while and there are people at that level that will benefit from a little bit of help.

I don't like the coaches that make wakeboarding too serious.

I actually went to a camp once. My friend owns a wakeboard camp so I thought I would try it out for a day. The people there were chill and the camp was run exactly the way you said they should. I am weird, but I still found it too restrictive for my taste. I was just chillin and then they told me to start working on something. That's cool and I think that is how you get the job done, but it just doesn't work for me. When I ride, I take hour long sets so it's not like I have to cram anything into a 20 minute set, you know? I'll try something and if it doesn't work, I'll try something else. I've developed many a bad habit by forcing tricks (so I just stoped doing the trick for a YEAR!!). Of course, my way isn't for everyone either.

Also, people do have different riding styles. Some need/want to try things over and over again and some don't. I just like the latter more than the former. But practice does make perfect.

Lastly, perhaps sean can save wakeboarding! With that in mind, is his address still for sale? Or those boxers.....

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PostPosted: May 20, 2003 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like coaching when it comes in the form of friends instructing you. But I will always ask, sometimes I just want to carve around and have fun. I think the camps are there for people that are into the more competitive side of wakeboarding. If I had it stuck in my mind that I wanted to land a Pete 5, w2w, or backrool then would go out and seek some adivce from someone that could coach me into doing that trick.

There are all kinds of people that board, I don't think camps are bad, even for the pros. The majority of pro athletes in other sports have "trainers" to keep them in shape or work on mechanics. I don't think wakeboarding should be any different. It's just the difference between someone going to a summer basketball camp and the guys that play rec ball after work.

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PostPosted: May 20, 2003 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Robinson wrote:
Here is my take. It will undoubtably make no sense...

You can tell someone how to mix paint, how to hold a brush, tell them about art theory.

But one you tell them how to paint their own picture, it has gone too far...

Exactly Josh...
Electricsnow you have once again brought a little depth into the sometimes very shallow wakeboard world.
There are only a hanfull of people on this site that grasp what board sports are really about and you two definatly reflect the soul and respect that board sports are all about. Isn't it weird(or ironic) that we always have these dicussions on the wakeskating forums

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PostPosted: May 20, 2003 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ill second that Russian. Ill be so proud of myself when I finally land a shuvit body varial on my own. Ive tried about 30 times and its my goal this summer.
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PostPosted: May 21, 2003 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Granted, chet helped darin with the raley, but byerly has invented a huge number of tricks without a coach.

Byerly not having a coach. You don't need a coach when you are the best and you are the one coming up with the tricks. It's the non pros that can benefit by hearing pointers from people who are better than they are.

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PostPosted: May 22, 2003 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, kinda funny that. Maybe it shows the way Wakeskating is going, and what it's all about...

I'd hardly put myself in the same league as electricsnow though...

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PostPosted: May 24, 2003 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man if i wasnt to damn a.d.d. to sit here and type all day i coule have one of thoes long asss things like seaman. all i got to say is that coching is bs pritty much i have been coched by derrik seaman, sean o'bbrien and dave brisco and the best coaching quality they had was insults calling you names telling to take your balls out of your sack they would tell you what needed to be done for the trick but not how to grab it. but sean o'brien will teach you more style then the big name coaches he tought me to grab my 3 which dave briscoe would of never done. nad expensive ass boats arent great i have more fun and learn more on derriks poontoon then on my tige 21v. but if you do want good wakeskating coaching i think if you went to ski world orlando and got seaman to teach you that would be the best thing for sure cause they dont got packed boats and what not derek is a great coach and the price ther isnt as bad as alot of other places.

slayden

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