such a thing as a fair comp???

[brentgd86]

i was just wondering if anyone has heard of any comps using diff ways to score runs???? last comp i rode in was S-K-E-T-C-H-Y.....i was the only rider in outlaw div with a stand up pass and was also the only one who stuck somethin big off the d-up...and somehow i didnt even place??? i saw one guy who just landed a shitload of easy tricks to rack up points and thought maybe he couldve racked up more points than me, but definitely not three people with more points than me. i feel like i outrode everyone by far, and got screwed on the scoring....not to mention some other sketchy things that happened along the way....it was just such a bummer after not riding for 2 months and layin down a bad ass run, thinking i got 1st or 2nd and not even placing. i could easily just land a bunch easy tricks to rack up points, but that is a pretty bitch-ass way to win IMO. i thought i wanted to compete in wakeboarding, but is it even fair? ive heard the higher level comps are somewhat political, and was just wondering if anyone else has seen much of this.

[NorthwestRider]

Ya it happens a lot. I don't think the judges always do it on purpose. I think they think all there bro's tricks look better then everyone else cause they know them. Sooooo. Make friends with the judges and problemed solved.

[bizzuck]

yes there are "fair" wakeboard contests.

[matt1808]

brentgd86, what was your run?

[shaggyboarder]

yeah id like to know your run as well, and what were some of these easy tricks the other kids were throwing?

[intotheflats]

I only ever competed in INT events and they are horrible which is why I no longer compete. At the nationals in '01 I placed 5th and the guy that took 3rd did the exact same run both down and back. He repeated every trick. I was in the advanced class at the time which was 3 inverts and spins up to 540's. You where allowed to repeat tricks but not in the same pass and if you did repeat tricks it was supposed to hurt your score but you still got credit for the trick.

My pass included 3 different inverts, and 3 different 360 variations and I didn't repeat a single trick. I had one fall but I still got in all my tricks. This kid had 1 invert which he did twice and 1 360 variation which he did twice and he beat me WTF.

[alafiaboarder]

i rode in one in intermediate my run: Heel stail, Toe crail poke, Heel slob 360, toeside nuclear grab, turn around, Heel Roll to Revert, Elephant, Heel nose 360, Toeside 540 R2 revert off double up

first place guys run: Heel indy, toe 180, heel 360, toeside indy, turn around, sketchy backroll, sketchy scarecrow, heel 360, toe 360 fell on 3 off double up

...i got 2nd.... u think i wasnt like wtf?

[brentgd86]

first trick off the dock i threw one of the better hoochie krypts ive ever done as big as i could to try to get attention, next i came back with indy backroll to revert. next i stuck a heelside method back way out in the flats and came back with a toeside grab off axis 5. for my last two tricks of the first pass i landed a stalefish front to fake, then a slob 3. on the pass back i landed hs backside o/a three and then an elephant. then a tantrum to fake and a crow mobe to come back. my last trick was just an indy tantrum bc i was running short on room for the d-up. i pulled a huge tail-glide that i tweaked so much that even i thought i didnt have enough time to pull it down, but i stuck it pefectly clean anyway. not to mention that was the ONLY good double up of the whole comp....the best one besides mine was a sloppy grab 360 which i pulled bigger and better just w2w. the "best" run i saw meaning the one which i thought scored the highest points... included nothing more than basic inverts...tantrums, backrolls, basic 3s both sides back 2 back....nobody was adding grabs....i saw a few elephants and a few rolls to revert, but nothing with near the difficulty of the moves i was landing. i saw one guy land a disgusting wrapped kgb and another guy land a disgusting whirly, but neither of them had anything else in their runs. the comp was just really sketchy, the owner of the facility was riding in the same div, and he pulled some bs and somehow got to restart his run after he already fell with no penalties. he fell out anyway and didnt even come close, but still. also, a friend of mine was talkin to him after my run and said something along the lines like: "looks like his run might be good enough to win this thing" to which he replied: "... i dont care if he gets 4th place or last place...." (or something very similar) that seemed really fishy to me that he conveniently picked all the places which don't win anything...why would he care what place i got all he should care is what place he got??? when it came down to adding up the scores at the end of the comp, the owner or guy running it or whatever, decides that the double up shouldnt be worth hardly anything since nobody landed much off of it....except me....worst competition experience ever and a total waste of money

[als132]

brentgd86, i agree with you that INT is rigged. i guess its fun, but the one we had around here was completely wack, and the judges knew almost everyone on the podium. My one and only experience thus far was a waste of 5 hours (because they suck ass at being on time) and 30 bucks or however much it was

[NorthwestRider]

als132, INT isn't rigged. I've judged INT events and I probably judged you if you came to a washington event. INT's judging is based around a preset point system for each trick. The point system doesn't have, what I think are the correct values for a lot of the tricks. The people that win INT are the people that have been doing for a while and know how to do easy tricks that are worth more points. The judges just call the tricks and give out style points(up to 2000 for Outlaw)- which isn't a whole lot when it comes down to it. As for being on time, INT is a lot better then NW session in my opinion. cause every one just parties the night before then gets stuff started around noon. Also I don't think that brentgd86 was riding in INT cause you only get 1 pass.

[WakeSyco]

brentgd86, If your throwing a crowmobe, hoochie Kypts, and oa 5s you sound like you should have been riding outlaw, maybe they thought you were sand bagger.

[JV]

i was thinking the same thing...maybe they punished you for being significantly better than everyone else in a lesser division

[savage3221]

WakeSyco, JV, he was riding Outlaw

[kyle]

NO CONTESTS ARE FAIRLY JUDGED....EVER

[brentgd86]

i was riding outlaw, and it wasnt an int tournament it was a local tourney in houston that was using the int rulebook for points and divisions

[JV]

sorry, my bad, i read right over that part. i will say if you ask the other riders you were up against to describe their run, they'd probably make it sound a lot more impressive than you did. not saying their runs might have been better than yours (i sincerely doubt it if you had a stand up pass with all those tricks), but they were likely experienced contests riders and, like northwestrider said, knew how to throw a lot of relatively "simple" tricks that score highly on the trick sheet. if judging was purely subjective, it certainly sounds like you should have won hands down, but they decided to follow the INT point system, for better or worse. that said, i don't have the point sheet in front of me, but i find it hard to comprehend a run outscoring what you threw down unless whirlies are worth like 10000 points, or something stupid like that

[bizzuck]

[boarditup]

I am the INT Coordinator in MI. There are always questions regarding judging. I have never had the first place finisher complain about the judging, however....Go figure.

Judges are volunteers and are regulars. They ride and have some limited training on the INT scoring system. Since they are human, and so am I, occasionally we get it wrong. Most of the time, the judging and scores are right.

On misperception above, if you fall, you drop a trick even if you re-do.

Those of us running the tournaments have a love for the sport and want to see it and the riders grow. Unfair judging will do nothing to assist us in this. I have no interest in trying to propel one rider above another - even my own kids. They have to earn it.

If you want to cast stones at us, try judging a round or two. It is very hard to do it well. I use two judges and one recorder so they can keep up. The guys who judge for me pride themselves in being as professional as possible. I am grateful for every rider they judge for me.

[97Response]

Switch to 3 event then, trick skiing in particular. While human error can still play a factor, it's a matter of did you do the trick or not. They don't grade on style. Wakeboarding can be lumped w/ the following in terms of judging: ice skating, mogul skiing, aerials, snow ski jumping, etc.

Jump skiing (water) uses cameras and computers to judge distance, and slalom skiing is "did you go thru the gates and around the buoys"..... this is why I compete 3 event. If you want a towed sport that is more subjective, I suggest you change.

Personally I don't care for sports where judges can give objective scores. Is wakeboarding fun; yes, however, to me, it wouldn't be fun to compete in. If you know this going into a competition, you should expect some days the calls will go your way, other days they won't.

[als132]

NorthwestRider, maybe i used the wrong words. That's basically what i meant. aside from seeing everybody on the podium as friends of the people who run INT, i was looking through the point system and its quite odd to see how the point values differ, and how you win. I just think it would be a much more accurate system if the judging was based off how well you ride rather than how many little things you can pack into your pass.

[djhuff]

I used to do competitive cheerleading in college and we had the same issues at one of the major competitions (there are two sanctioning bodies). Everyone went, then at the end, places were announced. This makes it even more subjective in that the score for the first team is not finalized until the last goes. This caused (among other things) the school I went to to switch competitions to one where the score is tallied and announced after each routine. After the switch, we won the national championship.

Seems like that if there is a set scoring guideline, the point totals should be announced immediately following the run. This takes the surprise out of the award ceremony, but alleviates accusations of point fixing after the fact. Just a thought.

[classik5onit]

INT is def messed up.. our rider that rides in the Expert division rode with a blown ankle. threw 5 inverts and 3 spins. the kid that took first threw the same tricks but only threw 3 inverts. that kid also spent the day in the boat with the judge. our rider took last place. that was def some bullish

[brentgd86]

first off, it wasnt an int tournament, they just used their points for the tricks and had different ways of scoring style, air, and double up is supposed to be worth a large portion. they changed the rules at the end of the tourney to make the d-up worth almost nothing. second i have no idea what they actually scored me for. they dont show me the score sheet with all the tricks i threw written down with how high and how "stylish" i did it... for all i know they could have given me a raley for my hoochie krypt, or a scarecrow for my crow mobe....whatever. in fact i even heard a few tricks called incorrectly. and as far as the guy who restarted his run...no... he fell on his first trick..a hoochie glide....then claimed that the guy running the jetski left a roller in his path and it screwed him up, but that wasnt even possible from where the jetski was. he restarted with NO penalties and was given 2 more falls just as if he had never left the dock. im not trying to prove that this competition was unfair, it just was....if you dont want to believe me then dont. i made this post to ask if most competitions are like that.

[Thomas P.]

whrilies must be worth upwards of 10,000 points. i've been shafted out of 500$ due to whirlies. everyone in the top 3 did/tried a whirly at a silver lake contest and apparently that;s better than t/s o/a5, h/s o/a5, batwing combo (the tricks in my pass in no one elses). most other moves were simple inverts and maybe someone did a 3, but it looks like whirly is going to be the trick to beat this summer. maybe i'll have to step up to t/s7, h/s7, batwing to blind to try and have a shot at the podium

[matt1808]

You need to know how much tricks are worth before the tournament. If points are based on tricks thrown, then you need to figure out what tricks you can do are worth the most points. If you want to do good in contests you need to throw the tricks that are worth the most points. You can't really get screwed that bad in INT style contests. Yes, more points should be given for style but that isn't how it is.

[brentgd86]

i dont really care about getting screwed out of one tournament...but i dont want to ride anymore and waste any more money if its going to be like that at all the comps i go to. as far as knowing the point values i dont like to ride like that....i could do a pass where i landed 15-20 easy tricks and win with no problem (that is assuming they score that correctly)....but i dont want to win like that....i would love to ride in a tournament where the BEST rider wins. or at least the guy with the best run....thats why im asking if other tourneys are like that. i really made this post to see what the higher level comps were like. i dont care if i win or lose id rather ride against tougher competition anyway...but most of all i just want it to be fair

[bmartin]

Post number 1:

[WakeCrasher]

It sucks to hear the possibility of unfair competitions. The few I've been around in florida have all seemed pretty fair but that was quite a few years ago. In my mind I would rather lose than win and know I was outridden.

Competitions aren't really for me anyway, at least not in the ways of organized competitions. I will always prefer just going out with friends and having the silent competition. You know, where you always have to pull off a bigger trick then your friend did in the previous run, weather you admit it or not.

[NorthwestRider]

bmartin, haha very nice. But that doesn't mean I am a crooked judge. I am aware that judges can be bais, because it has happened to me. So when I judge I am aware that I might be bias towards my friends, so make sure that I don't give them extra points just cause they're my bros.

[Stephan]

I've judged and while it can be hard, try doing it where points aren't given. Points are lame. When I judge its based on the difficulty, the size and the style. It can get tricky at times but you od what you can. Doesn't INT know that the PWT got rid of point systems in 99? Get with the times, its about expression and making this a board sport. We are not waterskiers anymore, get on the ball INT. Yes I'm calling INT out because all legit riders that have ridden in their comps hate them by comparison to a PWT style judging format. Go ride in Canyon Lake's comps, they are pretty fair. Not perfect but much better than a dumb point systems that rewards for repetition.

[brentgd86]

i didnt really like the whole competition side of the sport either....but its hard to get competition when i cant find anyone who can throw a bigger trick than me. mostly i go to comps to try to find people to ride with that are better than me. i wish i could find a group of bad ass riders around here to ride with on a regular basis. ideally i wouldnt mind being the worst rider on the boat...i seem to learn so much faster when i get to ride with someone better than i am

[goinbig143]

I have a contest on tape with my runs and the competitors runs as well.
It was no contest- I blew the other guys away. It was a 10 trick run, (intermediate) and I hit all 10 with 2 different 360s and an invert.
The closest to me was a guy who landed a backroll and bailed out on trick #7.
When I did not place I was a little upset, but it was not the end of the world.
I also placed in a contest where I thought I did not deserve to. I actually offered the cash I won to the guy I beat... I thought he deserved it more.

The worst situation I have ever seen at a contest involved a sand-bagger.
I had bailed out early, so I had no stake in the standings.
There were several advanced riders competing for places. one guy had a very strong run early in the class, and the bar was set. He had a couple of inverts and a spin (10 trick comp, advanced class). A couple other guys went and had good runs, and then the sand-bagger went. He exceeded the class limit on spins and inverts.
When the decisions were being made, an intermediatte rider who had a great run and exceeded his class limit on advanced tricks was bumped up to advanced. The advanced rider who exceeded the limits was told he was going to be bumped up to outlaw. The father of the advanced rider freaked out and threw a fit. End result, the sand bagger was left in advanced, and someone who deserved a prize was left out.

[matt1808]

brentgd86, you said it was INT rules. With INT rules you can only throw 12 tricks.

[boarditup]

The mission of the INT is to get more people into the sport - especially the kids and beginners. If you are riding a pro level, you may be better off on the tour.

There are some people will not be happy with any competition or tournament format. The INT format works for us. It may or may not work for you. If you do ride, the rules will be followed. As with any competition, understanding the rules will allow you to compete effectively. That is the same with any sport.

The trick point value format allows for more objective judging. You can judge on trick at a time. The complete subjective format takes very well trained judges that may or may not be available to an all-volunteer organization like the INT. The INT does not have paid professional judging staff like the pro comps.

If you do have an interest in developing juding skills - the INT is probably the best place to start. You will develop experience that can be used in many different judging systems and at many different levels. Give your state corrdinator a call. www.intleague.com

[CzechWakeboarder]

Judges should be brought in from out of town and not have contact with the riders before or during the contest otherwise its usually complete bs