State of the Union Speech

[chavez]

Blake, laws prevent people from getting "F'ed in the A" by management, not unions. Unions only provide for collective barganing - i.e. they allow for the might of the many to stick up for the needs of the few.

Problem is, when you can vote yourself free crap, you begin the downfall of the system. Unions have fought for years to get their employees lots of free crap from the corporations, and it is now catching up to them. It is going to catch up with this nation too, in shorter order that you may think.

Who do you think is going to pay for all of those pensions that go bankrupt? The PGBC can only pick up so much of that slack. We (the ones in their earning age) will have to pick up that slack.

The union demanded the big corporations write checks they can't possibly cash. When those checks bounce, WE - people like you me and muck, not the corporations or Union retirees, are going to be the ones left holding the bag.

[Blake]

chavez, I am going to be a Bum... Thus, you are going to be picking me up too as well as the hot check.

I was just throwing out a counter arguement to stir the pot a little. However, I am a strong supporter of the teachers union, which is rather weak. Dont even worry about that hot check though brother, I will cover it for you and muck... I will just write them another hot check!

Good points in your reply.

Miggity Muck, I will hit you with a PM tomorrow with a qoute of how much we would sell them for. What model are they, and what kind of shape are they in? You sas me one more time by the way, you are going to get the button clicked on yo ass!

Joe, I guess the people with the MBA's shouldnt have worked so hard? Atleast they purcahsed American... Thats all I got out of your post!

[8824]

Blake,
sas? i dont even know what that is.


the clubs are in good shape. somebody gave them to me. i hate golf. i can take a few pics and email them to you.

dont be pissed at me cuz CA is better than tx. notice the lower case?

[Blake]

mc muckmeister,you about to get glock glocked upon sucka. Texas sucks because Illinois BLOWS! You want some of this, fat boy? You should be getting hungry right about now. I know you assholes eat like 9 big meals a day!

Yeah, send me some pics of the clubs. Or, post them here.

[J-Ro]

Haha, I thought Blake was getting all serious on us and then he busts out the

[8824]

[Blake]

J-Ro, I tried for a moment... I am just not the kind of person who gets angry or serious over matters. Real easy going.

m c muckmeister, you have done nothing todeserve a name such as catcherboy... I am going to be leaving him alone for a while too. I think he was butt hurt the last go round, so I will let him be the die hard public defender.

By the way, golf does make you rather bitter. When I was in HS playing, I was a 4 handicap. The last two times I played, (Sunday, Tuesday) since like a month ago I threw up a 96 and a 98 with some 4 putts, and chips that went from my back foot, to my front foot. Everything else I was doing fine. Besides, can you think of any other job that pays you to go drink and play golf at the same time besides the PGA tour?

In the words of Dire Straits, "Money for nothing and your chicks for free!"

[lcap]

Unions aren't the problems for anything. Go back to school and pick up a few updated management books.

[eeven73]

[lcap]

eeven73,

What specifically would you like to know?

[8824]

Blake,

golf was so easy for me, i couldnt find the challenge,

my short game is kinda weak, but my drives and putts are pretty damn tight for golfing once every 5 yrs,

i am saving golf for retirement, when i cant walk anymore

PGA tour would not be a bad lifestyle.

[eeven73]

[Neognosis]

I think that unions are not all the same, and I've worked some places where the union was worthless and doing damage, and I've also worked some places where the union was of benefit to the company as whole.

I've worked places where the union wasn't needed, and I've worked one place in particular where the union was DESPERATELY needed, but the older union guys sold us younger guys out, so I found another job.

[Neognosis]

Ok, now that all the dust has settled, what the hell was that nonsense about banning "human/animal clones?"

Was that just some bit of BS that he figured would scare stupid old people? Reminded me of that SNL commercial selling Robot insurance to the elderly.

"because you'll need it, when the metal ones come for you."

What the F?

[lcap]

eeven73,

Sorry I didn't address your comment earlier.

If you look at the airline industry, which airline is the most profitable? Which airline has the highest rate of unionism? Hint: They are the same.

If you look at the studies in the construction industry which contractors (Union--Non Union) have the:
1. Highest customer satisifaction?
2. Lowest construction change orders/claims?
3. Have the highest "on-time" project compeltion?
4. Lowest overall "Cost of Construction?"

If you thumb through Forbes, Fortune, Inc., etc over the past decade or so you'll find artical after artical about the benefits of unions. More and more domestic companies are returning to unions because the large corporations have found in the end it's cheaper for them to hire "highly trained" individuals in the long run than providing in-house training.

My State and most local School districts have taken the lesson from big business and have started to hire union tradesmen to perform maintenance. The unions provide 3-5 years of training and on-going education and certifications. Safety: Osha 10, 20 and 40, CPR, First Aid, Hazmat, Asbestos Awareness, Lead Awareness, computer skills, etc., etc., etc.

Now I'm a capitalistic pig, I'm the first to admit it. But I take a great deal of pride in what I do. My name is on every project we complete. I will not sacrifice my pride for a dollar. Consequently I am a huge supporter of the unions. I can and do compete on a daily basis with "non-union" contractors. And no I'm not a union member, just a guy that cares.

[chavez]

lcap, so, if there was a reliable certification and CE system that would allow contractors to hire only those already qualified/licensed/certified to perform certain functions, the union function would be obsolete for your purposes?



*SRO is the way to go*

[J-Ro]

lcap, Yes, but the second most profitable airline uses no union at all

[lcap]

chavez,

For what I do the answer is no. I like sleeping at night. I have a comfort level in knowing what my guys know. I don't want to find out what they don't know when they are swinging a 65,000 lb boiler into place. Independent certifications would work and is a step in the right direction.

In addition the union gives us the ability to go from 60 employees to 120 and back again without the worry.

[eeven73]

[eeven73]

I guess you can sum up my opinion with, Unions who's only purpose is collective bargaining do harm.

[chavez]

lcap, so, an SRO combined with a PEO and you can finish your JOB within your stated ETA?

[lcap]

chavez,

Forgive me I have two volumes of Government Acronymes, I can't keep up with anything outside my own little world. So if you could do the dumb guy a favor and let me know what they mean, I'll try to answer the question.

SRO?

PEO?J-Ro,

I'd prefer to be numero uno.

[J-Ro]

Not by much though. Ryanair made $44m last quarter and Southwest made $56m.

[chavez]

SRO = Self Regulatory Organization
JOB = Job
PEO = Professional Employment Organization
ETA = Estimated Time of Arrival

[lcap]

J-Ro,

I'd take my $12,000,000 with a smile as I passed go and thanked all the union employees.

I'm a firm beliver in unions. They can be a pain in the a$$ at times. If you can believe this, I've actually had a few "disagreements" with them but they serve a great purpose.

On Public Works construction project the taxpayer is the beneficiary if unions are used. Probably why Washington State has a mandatory "Apprenticeship Utilization" requirement on the largest or most complex projects. The only ones with State approved apprenticship programs are the unions. Also the Port of Seattle, Port of Tacoma have the same requirements.

Most industrial clients also require union contractors. Microsoft, Praxair, Boeing, Pulp Mills, Oil Refineries, etc.

Certain Federal Entities prefer union contractors as well.

[lcap]

chavez,

And if you take the (P)eo + (ETA) = ?

[oshensurfer]

lcap,
You must admit that Unions can have their disadvantages, also. For example, illegal strikes and strong arm tactics, etc.

Are every one of your trades on every single job Union? If so, how do you manage unless it's a negotiated contract and Owner mandate? i.e. much Healthcare work. I'm on one now. Besides the obvious trade funds that unions have to supplement union contractors that cannot compete with the low bid on a cost per manhour basis.

I work at a Union firm (not me), but my crews and I support what they "stand" for as far as taking care of the worker, training, safety etc. etc., but I've had a few instances where I could not ethically support what they were doing.

Also, do you have a link to that study or a copy you can .pdf/scan so I can read it?

[lcap]

oshensurfer,

I've had a few run in's with the unions years ago. Not so much anymore. It's been interesting, seems like the unions and contractors have finally realized the importance of one another. That and maybe some of those "old school" hard corps field guys have retired. We have a few guys that we've kept from an apprentice until now. They are more "company" guys than some of those we get from the hall.

For the most part our projects are 100% union. We haven't had any problems with subcontractors that aren't.

I haven't had "market recovery" money in a few years. After the local Plumbers/Pipefitters union almost went bankrupt a few years ago, I haven't gone after it much. That and to obtain it, you have to be competing on a project with non-union competition. Anymore that rarely happens.

It sounds like we have opposite experiences with the ethics. Our guys view this as their profession and take it damn seriously. We've been called in a few aborted projects to clean things up. None has ever been on a union project.

I'll see if I can pull up some information. These studies were by the USCACE (United States Army Corps of Engineers--- ) but were before technology was as sophisticated. Another study was done by the University of Texas. They used interstate highway projects to compare. Easiest way to compare apples to apples--concrete is concrete.

[oshensurfer]

lcap,
I think that's awesome that your locals up there are doing good things for the industry. I wish that were the impression I had down here. I don't want to sound like that's been every dealing I've had with the Unions, but I've had more than a handful of issues, that just don't sit right with me. But, I will say that on the whole, I think they have done some really good things for the workforce. I just think that in today's free market, I believe in proving the ability and quality, not in strongarm tactics among other things. That industry died a long time ago and has no place in today's market. If that continues, IMHO, it will be the demise of more Union Halls than growth.

I'd go into some of the examples, but I'd just get fired up thinking about them.

I'll look forward to reading those studies.

[eeven73]

Necromancing.


Anyone watch?

My Cliffs Notes:

"We must work together to be the ONE America from my speech nearly 10 years ago.

Bubb Rubb all the newly elected Repubs, don't Bubb Rubb with any my stuff.

I promise to work with anyone who will help move America forward.

Y'all aint stuff, I won my elections.

America is great because we have a common sense of what is right."



Frankly the most blatant red flag waving, rubbing nose in stuff, grandstanding, combative SOTU speech I have ever watched.


***edit.

I read back over this thread and it was quite interesting as most of the discussion was about Oil Prices and Unions, some good stuff if you want to waste some time today.

[goofyboy]

no reason to watch. He's going to take his ball and go home. He will not pass a single thing from the congress. That said, every single middle class family that has a 529 plan should be on the horn to their rep chewing their butts about not taxing those plans.

[Okie Boarder]

Both his speech and the republican response were a joke......more big brother and benevolent provider big government ideas. We keep going further and further away from the principles of liberty and individual freedom this country was built upon.

I agree with this analysis...