Theory of Evolution: Believe it?

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Do you believe in the theory of Evolution? Does it conflict with your religious beliefs? How do you remedy this?

ohsix · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 6:17 am Post subject:

i can see this topic getting very long and frustrating to many people but no one will change their minds about anything.

moblsv · Outlaw Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 228

yes, no, not an issue

jason_ssr · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 6:37 am Post subject:

CB, the main problem with the question is the definition of "evolution". Even the religious believe that things evolve and science proves it. What religious groups dont believe is Darwinism, or his theory on the origin of humans. Just because we can see that a certain amount of evolution occurs doesnt mean we are descendants of monkeys. If we were, then why are there still monkeys?

You should look at it with an open mind, and weed out that which is opinion or where the real guesswork starts. Take in what is factual and proven. Once you do this, I dont think you will find that your religious beliefs are in conflict with the proven scientific facts.

Jester · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 7:54 am Post subject:

VERY well stated comments here, I think that's great. Most of the other message boards I visit quickly become flame wars about how Christians are ignorant or how non-Christians are going to hell. Nothing productive at all. You guys got it together, kudos!

I've been a Christian for about 8 years now, but I'm also a scientist so I've seen both sides & understand both relatively well. The main problem I see is that neither fundamentalist Christians nor the science community will research the ideas & views of the other group, they just waste time calling each other idiots.

Jason, I think you hit the nail on the head. If you just research the facts you can come to a point where you can believe in both & not have conflict in your belief system.

B-rad · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 8:04 am Post subject:

agreed jester. I think there are ways to hold you religions belifs (if that's your thing) and still be able to understand and grasp the fact that things do evolve. Good topic Cameraboy. I'm baptist by the way... basicaly non-practing, but still a beliver.

NAW · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 8:15 am Post subject:

Yes, no, NyQuil....

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Personally, I left my religion years ago. I believe in evolution to a point. Also, I never found anything in the bible that contradicts evolution. For instance, the Bible says God created man in his image. What "image" means is very debatable. And so God created man, but can't this also mean that man was single-celled when God set the wheels in motion? God made the world in days. But are we sure that "day" is one revolution of the sun, in this case? Can "day" be more figuritive or symbolic? Can we be sure of the translation over the millenia?

There is, however, something at the core of my bringing up this question. Scientific evidence points to evolution. There is very, very little scientific evidence to support Creationism (at least the way some religions wish to perceive it). So what do you teach in schools? Some people say one, some say the other, some say both. But if you teach Creationism, is that teaching religion, since there is no scientific evidence for Creationism, and it is only faith based? If you don't teach Creationism, and only teach Evolution, are you then teaching kids the opposite of what their families want them to believe?

Here in NY the schools teach Evolution exclusively, I think.

Jester · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 9:11 am Post subject:

There actually is a good amount of science that will support not only creation but also events in the Bible. However, being that the majority of the scientific community is evolutionist this kind of stuff tends to fall by the wayside rather quickly.

In California the schools teach evolution exclusively as well. I think it has to do with the separation of church & state, but I'm not politically inclined so I don't have good insight into it. In general, creation is associated with Christianity & evolution with science so creation is excluded from lesson plans to maintain the separation. However, I believe in private Christian schools they do just the opposite & exclude evolution, but I'm not positive. Is this fair? I don't think so. That'd be like going to court & only allowing one lawyer to present his side & expecting the jury to make their decision based on that. But whether or not things are fair isn't up to me, I simply try to encourage people to look into both sides & research the arguments rather than basing their opinions on one show they saw on the Discovery Channel or one sermon they heard at church.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Both theories are far fetched and have many inconsistancies. I believe in God and microevolution. Evidence supporting macroevolution is highly flawed and has huge gaps.

jason_ssr · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 9:21 am Post subject:

CB, it takes just as much faith to believe the story of Man evolving from monkey as it does that he came from God. Their is no scientific proof that either occured. One thing thats always puzzling about evolution is that it differs from all other natural science. The thing about science is that it is consistant. Evolution seems to start and stop at Mr. Darwins whim.

The hard part about interpreting the the Bible is language and time. That is why the interpretation of "image" and "day" seem to be so vague. To determine what was really being portrayed you have to be able to read the original text and language and know a little about the context in which it is written. Im not saying go out and learn Greek, Hebrew, aramaic, etc, but if a particular instance is giving you doubts you may want to look up just that. You will find that when using the word "day", the original language is speaking of the previous account where God creates day and night and labels the time from light to dark back to light, one day. Now I guess we could say that for 7 days God stopped the earth from rotating and the days lasted a long time, but wouldnt that have cause alot more problems/questions than just a 7 day creation?

ohsix · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 9:40 am Post subject:

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

I went to catholic school. They taught both.

As far as the "days" question, If God says "let there be light" doesn't that imply the creation of the sun? And if......aw, forget it. The Bible is not meant to be taken litteraly. At least it shouldn't be.

Jester, what the heck are you talking about? There is no scientificly accepted evidence to support creationism as believed by Creationists. At least none they ever taught in my Bio classes, or ever had on the Discovery or Learning channel. (I once saw some scientific evidence on the 700 Club, but I think it was fake).

Jason ssr: In college, they taught us that there is OVERWHELMING evidence to support evolution. So much, that it is almost a fact, not just a theory anymore. We learned that evolution does NOT start and stop on a whim. It happens at a very, very slow constant. We also learned that evolution is directly in line with 'natural science,' (unless I don't understand what you are talking about when you say 'natural science').

The theory of evolution DOES NOT SAY THAT MAN EVOLVED FROM A MONKEY. It says that the apes and mankind evolved from a common ancestor many, many, many millions of years ago. Monkeys stopped evolving due to several possible factors, some of them being that they found a niche where subtle changes did not give a huge advantage to mutated specimins. Another theory claims that the increase in human brainpower corresponds directly with the time when our species began eating shellfish. (diet spurs on brain development in pregnant females), and that humans lived in an enviroment where walking upright and being smarter were HUGE assets.

A more intelligent human, in a harsh environment, survives longer, and has more offspring. A more intelligent monkey, however, doesn't gain that much, because they are not in an environment that requires that much intelligence in order to have any advantage. (here, longer limbs, better balance, better dentition, eyesight, etc. may give more advantage). That's why there are still monkeys. And sharks. And alligators. If an alligator was born with the mutation of a chevy 350 growing out of it's butt, and it allowed it to catch more fish, then it would probably reproduce more and pass it's 350 Chevy on to it's kids. But there is not much that can happen to improve on the alligator. (unless a mutation occurs that allows them to survive in polluted waters. And the theory of evolution says that that should be happening gradually right now).

I was a bio major for 1 year. Perhaps someone who has a current bio degree can set me straight?

Mister C · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 10:37 am Post subject:

Yeah, I'm in a Catholic high school right now and they teach us both. Evolution in Biology and Creationism in Religion.

Personally, after some of the videos and I have seen and some of the books I have read, I think evolution is flawed. First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Darwin partly based his theory from the finched at the Galagopos Islands. He observed that their beaks changed as the seasons did, and those whose beaks were most suited to the environment survived. What he didnt say was that as soon as the environment changed back to what it had been before, the finches' beaks changed back into their original form. So that, technically, wasnt evolution at all.

There are tons more arguments I have, but some of them are too long to be here and others I dont remember quite that well and would probably fall apart with some questioning.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Cameraboy- What about the multicultural theories (europe, asia, and africa) and the lack of connection between speices. It is still a theory. My anthropology class pointed out something like 3 different theories then we wrote our final on what we thought was the most valid. If there are 3 different theories then obviously it is not a proven fact.

Mister C · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 10:40 am Post subject:

I forgot to put this in before, but in my signature it says "Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence." Basically, just because there is not as firm of evidence for Creationism as there is for Evolution doesnt mean that Creationism doesnt exist. It just means that it hasnt been proved or disapproved yet.

ohsix · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 10:43 am Post subject:

you are correct Nor*Cal there are 3 main theories of evolution that scientists believe and they almost all swear that the 2 they don't believe in can't be true.

jason_ssr · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 10:49 am Post subject:

That makes sense except that you are assuming we have a ballpark figure for the age of the earth. Religious types will tell you its only 4000 yrs old, while scientists will say its millions of years old. The old theories were based on carbon dating which unfortunately has damaged the credibility of many scientific claims because it is so flawed. Again, nobody really knows.

I guess it really depends on your starting point. If you are a religious man looking for scientific congruence you start with certain truths and see where proven facts fall in with your truths. If you are a scientist looking to understand religion, then you start with different truths and try to see where religion is literal or figurative.

I love my religous and scientific beliefs but I do admit that I fall in the first group.

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

It takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does creationism. One says that an omnipitant (sp?) God created the heavens and earth. The other claims that a protien and amino acid combined at the perfect temperature and place to create a living organism. Both seem equally difficult to grasp.

Sorry Jason I kind of stole some of your thought...

Jester · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 11:09 am Post subject:

Well, that pretty much answered my question about evolution being taught in religious schools.

CB, I have a degree in physiology & I'm a scientist at a pharmaceutical company. For you to use the argument that scientific evidence was never presented in any of your bio classes to support creation is answered by your own previous post; they teach evolution exclusively. Same with Discovery Channel, I was using that as an example of where "evolutionists" get their facts.

You also did EXACTLY what the rest of the scientific community does when you talked about the 700 Club. Now I'll be the first to admit that when I'm lookin' to educate myself about science I'm not gonna watch that station, but chances are some of that data was reliable & you wrote it off right away rather than researching it for yourself. Time, Newsweek, & several other reputable publications have printed articles that support writings in the Bible, so if you think the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally maybe you should give those articles a look.

You're absolutely right about us not evolving from monkeys though, many people misinterpret that. However, you contradicted yourself by saying to Jason that evolution is an ongoing process but then said that monkeys probably stopped evolving 'cuz it wasn't advantageous. Which do you believe? If evolution works the way scientists have proposed, then it's not unreasonable to believe that all species should be evolving more human type characteristics. Truthfully, there is absolutely no environment where a primitive intellect is more advantageous than a higher one. Yet the diversity of species remains, why?

I realize my arguments are rudimentary, but I don't wanna write 3 pages worth of stuff that nobody wants to read.

Crissylicous · Outlaw Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 193 City: Wonder Lake

I go to a Catholic school and we were taught the theory of evolution. I suppose I could agree that bits and pieces of the theory as a whole could be accurate to an extent.

DaveBrowning · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 11:56 am Post subject:

I guess that I am going to be the odd one out... I do not believe in evolution. I've heard way too many things about it that differ so much. Like today, my biology teacher told us that evolution does not say anywhere that we evolved from apes, although, we have 99% of the same genes that chimps do. He claims that he studied evolution very hard and in depth and found that it never says we evolved from apes. I've always heard from people that believe in evolution that we did evolve from apes. They also claim that they studied it very heavily before they came to a decision on what they believe. So I have two different stories coming from people that believe in the same thing. Which to me, is kind of strange. The bible on the other hand, has always read the same way. Nothing about it has changed. The wording may have changed with different translations, but it all tells us the same thing... God made man. I have tried reading on evolution, but the information I get is constantly changing or contradicting itself. I just find something like that somewhat hard to believe... especially when there has been something around for thousands of years that hasn't changed.

Neognosis · Ladies Man Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 17617 City: Webster

Jester:
Monkeys fit a niche that didn't necessitate further evoulution. However, mutations are ALWAYS happening. When a mutation proves an advantage, it sticks--da dah! Evolution. Monkeys, while still mutating, haven't changed because no advantagous mutations have occurred recently. Make sense? So they have not evolved lately, but only because no advantageous mutations have happened.

I automatically discount the 700 club because it is an organization with an obvious agenda. Along the same lines for Jason ssr: If you start with a belief, than look for evidence, you can never be objective. You need to start with nothing, and then gather evidence and form a hypothesis from what the evidence says. This is why I think the scientific method is flawed.

WHy don't they teach creationism in colleges and universities, unless it is under the shelter of religious study? Because the scientific community hasn't found enough evidence for it. We have lots of evidence of evolution. However, evolution relied on random mutations. RANDOM mutations. That's why it doesn't happen all the time, and why it happens in some species more than others. Look at your dog, for pete's sake. He's living proof of evolution, with the preferences of Man as the driving factor for survival. Dogs that we liked, we bred. Ones we didn't, we didn't. Result: the EVOLUTION of Cannis Lupo into Cannis Familiaris. (wolf to domesticated dog).

Nature and the survival of the fittest drives evolution, much like man drove the evoulution of the dog.

ohsix · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 12:11 pm Post subject:

noneya · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 796 City: Roxboro, NC

So wes you dont believe that dogs have changed (evolved) as they have been bred by humans through the years? 4 generations is nothing in evolutionary times, if you continued to breed the smartest dogs together, maybe in a few million years they would be able to talk.
What about cows, sheep and other domesticated animals, have they not changed since humans started selectively breeding them?
The easiest place to see evolution is in micro-organisms because of the short life span, look at SARS, totally new life form. Influenza didnt exist before 1900, where did it come from if it didnt eveolve? Did God create it??

ohsix · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 2:06 pm Post subject:

i'm not trying to disprove anyone's beliefs on evolution or creation. for the dog thing i was just looking for an estimate. guess i wont live to see it happen.

if the current human reproduction rate continues the earth will be over populated before too long. do you think humans will evolve to live in conditions that we consider over population? or do you believe something will happen to prevent over populating the earth?

wakeriderof87 · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 2:47 pm Post subject:

ok, the people who say that there is no evidence for creation. You've been taught in places where evolution was taught. In 8th grade i took physical science from a creationist, and 9th grade i took biology from a evolutionist. After going thru both classes, i would have to say that the evidence for creation far outways the evidence for evolution. While i am a christian, I can look at this objectively and realize that there is more evidence for creation.

Face-Plant · Addict Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 703 City: Riverview

i look at it this way "how did it all start" i dont know the correct terms or anthing but people say stuff about atoms colliding or somthing like that( you know what i mean) but how did the atoms get there? then keep going back saying how did that get there. eventually your left with some one of some thing putting it all in motion.

and also i'm still waiting for a half evolved creature, they still havent found one

Face-Plant · Addict Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 703 City: Riverview

i think some people are confusing "addaption" with evolution, with the dogs and stuff. for somthing to come out of nothing is quite a different story. i heard this one time and it really made me think,

the earth is moving away from the sun and a constat speed(i forgot exactly how much). if the earth was anywhere near as old as scientist today say it is the earth would have been touching the sun at one time meaning it would have burnt up.

Even charles darwin himself said that his own ideas were very far-fetched and it is wonderd if even he believed them at all.

While creation cant be proved either i have found it much easier to believe.

Jester · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 4:35 pm Post subject:

Nor*Cal · Ladies Man Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 9479 City: Sac

Face-plant- I totally agree. They are confusing microevolution with macroevolution. All Darwin wrote about was Microevolution and that has been blown way out of proportion.

Mister C · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject:

I think that I believe in Creationism rather than evolution. I read a book called "Intelligent Design." I think its by Mike Behee or someone like that. Anyways, that book totally disapproves evolution, and my religion teacher also pointed out some strong arguments for creationism as well.

Bill Y Bob · Posted: Apr 21, 2003 8:51 pm Post subject:

Evolution takes a very long time. The way I look at it, evolution only really happens in 2 ways.
1. If there is a change in the environment and the organism adapts, they are "evolving"
2. If there is a genetic mutation that helps the organism succeed, that trait could possibly be passed on through generations.
There is a lot of discrepency on how the Earth was created and how you first got particles. There is a lot we will never know. It is one of those you have to have been there to know what really happened.

OttoNP · Addict Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 848 City: MI

2 quick things...

The age of the earth has been verified by many dating techniques, not just carbon. It's about 4.55 billion years old. It is important to realize that there have been many completely different tests showing this, not just one. When you get the same answer using different methods, the results are accurate.

I used to think that God must exist because the olds of everything happening just right were too great. This is a very common argument from religious types. Well, I was talking to one of them and they were talking about this. They do believe in aliens, they figure in all the universe there must be other life out there. So, most people will agree that the chance of everything just happening in a way that life is created is pretty slim, but will concede that in all the universe it is likely to have happened at least once. Then they say, what is the likelihood that we happen to be this one lucky event? Here is where the problem is, if this event only happened once in the whole universe, we would have to be it, since we do exist...thinking about this is pretty interesting...

Nick
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Weight loss forums

jason_ssr · Posted: Apr 22, 2003 5:54 am Post subject:

Great post Otto... it is very interesting. An interesting idea about the age of the earth is the assumption that it would be created new. The 4000 year theory is from its creation to the present. The popular religious belief is that God created an aged planet much like he created an aged human. When Adam was created he was a man, not a baby as the story goes. (by the way, do you think he had a navel?) When I mentioned carbon dating I was referring to dating the chronology of living beings in reference to evolution, not the age of the terra.